It just goes to show my prior point, and that is that Liberal thinking is crazy.
Conservatives are sooo much better.

Nice touch at the end with the photos! Assholes!

Couldnt you also use these photos for absinence programs. Seriously, who wants that growing inside of them. I saw Aliens, I know what happens next.

Thank Dog for Vasectomies!

Are you lysdexic oot?

I'll state my abortion politics clearly - I'm anti-abortion and pro-choice.

The ussue is not about murder, it's about rights - the rights of a clearly current person vs. the rights of a maybe future person.

Who's rights take precedent? IMO, Those of the clearly current person.

For those with religious arguements about this, please correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't God abort Jesus in the ~103rd trimester?

'Nice touch at the end with the photos! Assholes!'

Yeah...God for fucking bid that open-minded, liberal people actually be confronted with the grim realities of their 'choices' or the exercising of their 'rights'. It's easy to be sanctimonious with your head buried in the sand.

I don't think that men should have the right to legislate what women can and cannot do with or to their bodies (although I'm glad they've seen fit to outlaw teh smack). But I think we all should have take an unflinching look at the consequences of our actions, major or minor.

Abortion is an ugly, horrific act. I think I can assume that anyone who declares themselves pro-choice would agree; the point still remains, though, that it IS a woman's right (and a man's, to a degree) to decide whether or not to have a child. My gripe with the Pro-Life Movement is their abandonment after the fact. Where are they once the child is born? Do they help raise the child, do they offer to sit, pay the bills? I think not.

If they put all the energy they expend on rallies, protesting, and harassment into sexual education, developing new birth control methods and ALLOWING their use (note: choose your politicians wisely), abortion rates would decrease...Ultimately, a goal most people would like to see.

Werd.

x72

x144

first of all, what do you think a baby looks like from conception to about 8 months??? pretty much like the pics shown... aborted or not.
Do foetuses feel pain?? research is ambivalent, we don't know.
Anyway, most of the time, the baby is better off ded than born and raised in poverty or abused or anything else....

The way I got my daughter's first serious boyfriend to pay attention (about age 14) was to tell him (and I quote):

'If you knock up my girl I'll beat the baby out of her belly and make you eat it!'

In this small way, we avoided the whole issue with birth control awareness. She went to the clinic the next day at his insistance.

I personally got a vasectomy after having two (replace yourself and your spouse...ZPG), but my second wife had a handful of abortions during our marriage, usually concealing them 'buying new tires' or 'catching up on the back bills'. Had they been mine, and had I been asked, I don't know if I would have been able to support her decision. As it was, I had no idea.

Having never been pregnant myself, I officially have no position. But my opinion is that the mother is the one who should have the choice, because it will indeed, affect the rest of her life.

The key seems to be prevention. As pointed out, the people who are against control over reproduction are the ones who seem to be unwilling to raise or care for the multitudious hoardes unless they are allowed to raise them in their own narrow, bitter, blindered manner.

I find this to be the most frightening thing about Bush's 'Faith Based' initiative; giving social and educational responsibilities over to Judeo-Christian orginizations like the Catholic Church and the Mormans who don't allow birth control and therefor must discriminate as a tenet of their faith against those sane enough to control their breeding.

So what everyone is saying is that women should have the right to murder a baby? What about the rights of the baby? Should I have the right to shot and kill my neighbor? Why not? Hey, if women have the right to kill babies why cant someone have the right to killa grown adult? Whats the diffference?

20hate
You are assuming the babies would be in poverty and get abused. You dont have any facts to prove that

And you don't have any facts to prove that they wouldn't. You also don't have any facts to prove you've been following the conversation thus far.

Heres what lilbabypissmouth said:

My gripe with the Pro-Life Movement is their abandonment after the fact. Where are they once the child is born? Do they help raise the child, do they offer to sit, pay the bills? I think not.

My response to this is:

Why should pro life people take care of other peoples babies? If someone gets pregnant then it is their responsibility to take care of the baby. If youre dumb enough to get pregnant even though you didnt want a baby its still your responsibility. There are way to many ways to prevent pregnancy so theres no excuse. People need to start taking responsibility for their actions and murder (abortion) is not taking responsibility.

vasudeva,

I see you have totally ignored my first response to what everyone has said...thats fine with me if you and everyone else doesnt have a good answer about what I said about this:

So what everyone is saying is that women should have the right to murder a baby? What about the rights of the baby? Should I have the right to shot and kill my neighbor? Why not? Hey, if women have the right to kill babies why cant someone have the right to killa grown adult? Whats the diffference?

Hey, whatever.

I think it was probably ignored because its a lousy argument that does nothing to further the discussion, and can only be expected to incite further irrelevant flaming.

Reductio ad absurdum is really a poor man's argument, and can nearly always be used to 'prove' both sides of any issue. Here, I'll give you a pro-choice one: The average woman passes a great deal of fertilized, unimplanted eggs through her system, never knowing they were fertilized. Is this murder? If so, who is responsible for that? The woman, if she is using birth control? God?

Obviously, the abortion debate centers around some area in the middle, and clearly there is a gray area, where at some point, a nothing becomes a potential person, and eventually the potential person becomes a real person. The real debate is about when those critical transitions happen, and what the status of a potential person is, in relation to fully real persons.

and the reason this was ignored?:

Why should pro life people take care of other peoples babies? If someone gets pregnant then it is their responsibility to take care of the baby. If youre dumb enough to get pregnant even though you didnt want a baby its still your responsibility. There are way to many ways to prevent pregnancy so theres no excuse. People need to start taking responsibility for their actions and murder (abortion) is not taking responsibility.

Im mean seriously....if your going to sit here and ebate dont ignore what someone says

myrepublicanassbaby:

I believe teh LBP is talking about how people who oppose abortion also oppose birth control and teaching safe secks to young people, because it's 'against their religion.' They wish to have their cake and eat it too, with a fresh side of bullshit.

'There are way to many ways to prevent pregnancy so theres no excuse.'

I will agree with this statement, to some extent. Two reasons why I support abortion: 1) I do not believe that a child should have to grow up with severe physical or mental defects. It can be a drain on society, especially, if the parents are poor and cannot care properly for such a disabled person. 2) Rape/Incest.

One of the problems I do have with abortion is that it's too easy to use it AS a form of birth control, which I do not believe it should be. It should truly be an action of last resort.

Hey, you ignored what the guy above you said about your agrument that you've now posted THREE times.

Way to be a jackass!

Damn you Ninja!

I think it is disgusting that anyone would make excuses to use abortion for birth control. I would say the vastmajority of MEN who are pro-choice only say so in event that they might have to take responsibility for their actions. If a woman is raped, then she should immediately take action, anyone who waits for a month to miss a period should face the consequences of their actions instead of taking the life of another person. I do not give a flying fuck what you say, it is murder plain and simple. Are murders sometimes justified? Apparently loki thinks so at least. Don;t give me that bullshit about botched procedures either. If a woman is sticking a coat hanger up there she deserves to bleed to death. If you cannot take care of a baby LEARN TO SUCK COCK AND KEEP IT OUT OF YOU.

'Damn you Ninja!'

haha, SEXNIGER3'D!!1

Wow! Hot stuff here.

1. I am decidedly pro-choice.

2. I agree with SexNinja that abortin should not be an alternative method of birth control and it's primary use should be in cases of malformed feotesus and cases of rape/incest

3. I also believe that abortion due to age, economic and family factors is acceptable

4. Is murder ever justified? Of course it is. Isn't an exicution just a kind of retro-active abortion? It's interesting that the proponents of capital punishment (state sanctioned murder) are anti-choice and the opponents of capital punishment are most often pro-choice.

The arguements on either side of both questions are utter bullshit because we need so much information that we don't posess. The pro-life side has repeatedly blocked the research required to determine exactly when a foetus becomes human. Shit! We don't even really have a good definition of human to work with.

There are too many questions that need answering and there is far too much emotion invested on both sides for there to ever be any kind of rational dialog.

Just for the record...people against abortion are not anti-choice. They are anti-abortion. Theres a difference. Read it here

http://myrawopinions.com/proabortionorprochoice.html

No.

WERD!

CONFUS3'D !! !1 111 1

Hahaha.... that guy is an idiot. He's pro choice and he shoots back, so I hope he gives us the choice to shoot him in the back.

He's not MY republican friend.

yrf: Why should pro life people take care of other peoples babies? If someone gets pregnant then it is their responsibility to take care of the baby.

I guess what it comes down to, for me, is that the clamoring by anti-abortionists for illegalization of abortion, coupled with indignant rejection of any responsibility for the children they'd like to force a potential mother to care for in an abortion-free legal environment, points out one thing: that people who seek to overturn abortion rights don't do so because they love people and want to protect them. They do so because they hate any disagreement with their ideas on mortality and decency.

It's a control issue, I think; they're demanding the rest of us to conform to their moral system because they find the alternatives offensive.

Fuk that.


yrf: vasudeva, I see you have totally ignored my first response to what everyone has said...thats fine with me if you and everyone else doesnt have a good answer about what I said about this.

The reason I ignore your first response is because it was essentially blown to shit by LOki's post way before you ever made it. Scroll up and read that post.

I know there's a formal name for this kind of logical error, but I can't find it right now.

A: 'You guys support murder?'
B inserts seven paragraphs explaining how murder is already supported by most humans in one form or another and how the current type of murder is rendered a null concern by the preemption of a pre-existing set of personal rights and therefore any argument devolving to calling it 'murder' have basically missed the boat and are going to have to load up on some more specific logic and not simply hot-button words.
A: 'So wait, you guys support murder?'

I'm only out of bed by about 20 minutes so I hope I explained that in a way that makes any fuking sense at all.

the picture that says 'Im pro choice and I shoot back' is sarcasm. Idiot.

vasudeva

anti-abotion people do NOT hate anyone. Why do you people always label people with 'hate'? I dont get it. Being against abortion doesnt mean we hate anyone.

the bottom line is people that get abortions are lazy and afraid of responsibility. You either wear protection and be responsible (or dont have sex at all) or you get pregnant then you should take care of your responsibility as a parent of the kid you brought into this world. Its your fault for getting pregnant. Period. Abortion (MURDER) is a sorry ass excuse to avoid responsibility.

yrf: anti-abotion people do NOT hate anyone. Why do you people always label people with 'hate'? I dont get it. Being against abortion doesnt mean we hate anyone.

Hate? Are you a troll, or are you just being thick? For the third time, I'm going to refer you back to posts you should have read if you're going to debate. (I'll note you ignored the rest of my post(s) apart from that one word.)

And the REAL bottom line? You don't like abortion and you think those who get them are irresponsible? Fine. Act -- and raise your children -- accordingly.

These are your rights.

Don't fuk with mine.

Now get me a banana cognac, byetch.

'the bottom line is people that get abortions are lazy and afraid of responsibility.'

That's a bit on the nose don't ya think, old chap? Avoid making blanket statements like this in the future and it shall serve you well.

'You either wear protection and be responsible'

Yes!

'(or dont have sex at all)'

No!
christ, not that ridiculous argument.

'Its your fault for getting pregnant.'

Uh, yeah... What about cases of rape and forced incest? Those are hardly a 'fault' of the pregnant woman.

'Abortion (MURDER) '

Allow me to repeat Vas's excellent response to that:

'B inserts seven paragraphs explaining how murder is already supported by most humans in one form or another and how the current type of murder is rendered a null concern by the preemption of a pre-existing set of personal rights and therefore any argument devolving to calling it 'murder' have basically missed the boat and are going to have to load up on some more specific logic and not simply hot-button words.'

yourrepublicanfriend: seems to me that in the US you don't need fact to prove something.....i'm so glad I dont live there
Was I really saying that if every aborted baby lived instead they would be abused and live in poverty?? I think not...but a large percentage of abortion happens in the young and poor population which happens to have a high rate of abuse...check any statistics agency.

I think if the right-to-life folks really want to protest something they should start with red China where doctors and nurses routinely murder infants in the delivery room if the pregnancy was not authorized by the state and the murder of female children has been a common practice for centuries.

There seems to be alot of confusion regarding these labels, you all need to get clear of the garbage, and get clear on your positions.

LOki is:
Pro-choice. Having choices is having rights -- a life without rights is not a life; at least not a human life.

In most cases presented to me, I would choose a way that preserves human life.

Which also makes me ...

Anti-abortion. It's a choice. Moreover it is a choice consistent with being pro-choice. Besides, anyone who is pro-abortion is in need of therapy.

Pro-life. Unlike those hypocrites who make claim to this label, I'm pro-life for the prospective mother, pro-life of the expected child.

But I insist that these lives be human lives. I cannot accept degrading women to the status of 'brood animal' to appease someone else's superstitions or stone-aged notions of gender class.

Nor can I accept the forced birth of one who may be unwilling and is certainly unable (and may continue to be, for the rest of their unfortunate lives) to excersie their rights, who forced into this world find themselves unwanted and unloved.

On the one hand I find it abborhent that anyone should consider the taking of another individual's life a 'right.'

The taking of human life can never be contemplated without utmost care and consideration. Taking life cannot ever be allowed to be taken lightly.

On the other hand, I think is is the height of arrogant hypocracy to insist that at every pair of parents --that every mother-- does not endure a terrible trial of concience when making a choice regarding the fate of a new being. And worse, to think that government regulation could possibly take the place of that.

THE END.

Nice job LOki.

i think abortion should be available to parents, atleast until the child reaches the age of 35.

nice job? He said shit

Did he? That fucking asshat!

Goddamnit LOki! Don't you know how fucked up it is to use bad language in a sensitive fucking debate. That's so shitty I can't fucking imagine what the Goddamn fuck you were fucking thinking.

Piss on you and your shitty potty mouth talk. Jesus Fucking Christ! I'm sure you know better.

yourrepublicanfriend:nice job? He said shit

Right then. You've just come out of the closet as one of the following:

1) an idiot
2) a troll
3) an intelligent person who wants to engage is serious debate but for some reason is grievously ill-equipped to do so at the moment.

As such, I probably won't be wasting any more time with you trying to discuss things. But this doesn't rule you out as completely useless to the Internet at large. We could still, say, play some Scrabble over at Yahoo.

You'd have to know some words, though.

Boned that Chicken, Vas. Good job!

An Idiot and a hate troll? Please explain to me how you came to this conclusion.

He came to that conclusion while his boyfriend was beating the back of his head with his cock yelling 'Turn around, bitch!'

It's a very good conclusion.

yourrepublicanfriend: An Idiot and a hate troll? Please explain to me how you came to this conclusion.

I came to my conclusions after reading your series of contributions to this thread; they're typified by an inability to comprehend the arguments you're presented with, a lack of regard for accuracy, and all-around general asshattery.

The post I'm responding to now typifies all three of these ideas, to wit: your lack of understanding of the either/or concept, the arbitrary insertion of concepts that are irrelevant to the post you're responding to (e.g., hate), and an overall sense that, instead of reading and thinking, you're sitting there with a butterknife up your ass wondering when the toothfairy is going to swing by and drop off a new set of silverware.

yourrepublicanfriend - 'nice job? He said shit'

Shit? Please explain how you came to this conclusion.

Damn, I miss this place.

I want to post a response to yourrepublicanfriend, but his inability to see abortion from any other perspective other than his own narrow viewpoint really scares me. I have never posted on this site, but this topic is close to my heart. I had an abortion at the young age of fifteen, because I was date raped. I said no and he didn't care. My parents supported my decision to have an abortion. I graduated from high school and when I made the decision to have sex I used birth conrol responsibly. I agree that abortion should not be used as a form of birth control, but there are logical reasons why girls/women make the decision to have an abortion. I do not want to lose this right. The argument is not about abortion it is about rights and ,if this was a man's issue there would be no argument or case to be made. But, because I am a woman the government is going to question my choices and think them illogical; Therefore, they feel the need to step in and decide for me. I did not have the mental and emotional strength to carry a product of rape to term , since when is it the governments right to force me to do something that will cause me severe mental and emotional anguish? Why would I want to bring a child that was not created by love, but by hate into this already brutal world?

By the way Relli, I don't even know why I am entertaining your stupid ass, ignorant comments about learning to suck cock instead of allowing myself to be penetrated. But, maybe you deserve to be incarcerated and have someone twice your size overcome and penetrate you against your will. By the way, when is the last time you endured 9 months of pregnancy, labor, childbirth, and how about an episiotomy? It is a tolerable experience when you want the child, but how bout when daddy raped you or some asshole decides he is going to get lucky with or without your consent?

Just the thought of being some bubba's prison bitch makes relli quiver with delighted anticipation. Or something.

schoolgirl: By the way Relli, I don't even know why I am entertaining your stupid ass, ignorant comments about learning to suck cock instead of allowing myself to be penetrated. But, maybe you deserve to be incarcerated and have someone twice your size overcome and penetrate you against your will.

Oh, he's been penetrated against his will, all right. Or at least, he will, if he ever makes it to any of the BBPs.

relli- SKOOLGIRL3'D!!1

the majority of abortions arent done because of rape. Rape abortions are a very small percentage. What about abortions that arent from rape? Should they be ok anyway? Or is rape just a tool to get what you want?

Some of them are ok, yes.
And d00d, come on. THIS THREAD IS OVAR.

I WIN.

Rape, incest, birth defects, etc. are beside the point.

'I think is is the height of arrogant hypocracy to insist that at every pair of parents --that every mother-- does not endure a terrible trial of conscience when making a choice regarding the fate of a new being.'

'And worse, to think that government regulation could possibly take the place of that.'

What do you think about that, Mr. Republicanfriend? What flavor of government intrusion into human reproduction do you favor?

Please describe for us the composistion of the congressional committee that would adequately address my concerns regarding the rights, and quality of life for actual and viable human beings?

How many nanny minded Socialists would be involved? Would you insist upon a majority of your own corporate aristocrats? Would they be presided over by some high priest who dedicates each soul saved to the invisible white father in sky? Come on! Tell us!

Describe to me the full nature of your glorious totalitarian utopia -- I can hardly wait.

Forget it LOki. He's the political equalivalent of Slipped Hole.

He won't ever actually respond. He'll just rephrase his original premise until he gets some one to agree with him.

I can't see that happening any time soon.

There are a lot of these thoughtless and inarticulate wing-nuts haunting the site these days.

But like I said about slippedhole:

They're all sour on the outside, but sweet when you crack them open.

Oh yeah -- Azron,

Slippedhole is 720x the person yourrepublicanfriend is.

Slippedhole is at least trying to make some kind of difference. He may be ill equipped and wrong on his foundation, but it is apparent to me that he is intending to do the right thing as he sees it.

This other nut-job is a different story. He a rabid anti-dem, frothing and screaming his thoughtless opinions everywhere, and when asked to explain himself he uses suspect 'facts' and careless logic.

I understand why, of course; suspect 'facts' and careless logic are the tools of the rabid anti-rep crowd.

I find the interaction between the two tedious. And the worst part is that these rabid asshats are so effective at disgusting sensible folks that the valid points that are made are rendered suspect they are presented by incomprehensible retards that only mouth them (without any understanding)in their shrill idiom.

I feel like we set out to conquer the Sahara and, having loaded up on all manner of armaments and supplies, find what we're really doing is shooting idiot fish in a small barrel with bazookas.

But in a good way. Case closed.

I actually visited YRF's website for shits and giggles, and what I found there was more of what's going on here.

Despite agreeing with several of the opinions he has published there, I found that by and large theses were presented as if they were in no need of logical or factual support -- as if their foundations were some manner of self evident truth.

Someone somewhere around here characterized this type of posting as 'all sauce and no meat.'

Truth of the matter is 'opinions are like asshholes -- everyone has one.' Not everyone has an informed opinion, however, and it's those opinions that are a lot more intriguing.