"When you see the movie you will see things you have never seen before, you will learn things you have never known before..." LOL yeah fucking right. Sorry I know I'm beating a dead horse but Moore is liar.

I haven't seen anything about Moore to make me think hes a liar. A fat fuck, annoying; yes. But BFC was pretty straight-foward facts, yeah with a very opinionated tilt to it, but I mean if you think its bullshit lets get down to specifics.

http://www.moorelies.com/

granted moore is a bit crazy.. but look at what he is covering. I do think that there are a great deal of truths involved in what he is doing. Some are a little more dramatic than maybe they should be, but it gets your attention. His views on gun laws i can fully agree with. If we had less guns, we would have more swords.. which means more ninjas. I would like to see this film for the simple fact that the US government doesnt tell you shit and they are the real liars here. George Bush is probably the worst president that this country has seen in its history and I support any effort that a man wants to take to speak up against him. I mean, who are any of you to know what the TRUTH is. The truth is just one man's perspective and most of the time, that man is cross-eyed.

Yeah he's a total leftist; But hey, the truth hurt sometimes right? I definitely believe the hype. Get down with your bad self Michael Moore. Dying for oil, greed, territory, in the name of principal alone.
real american terrorist we salute you Samuel Adams. History reveals, you and your militia were as big a threat to the brittish, as sadam husein's militia is against your militia today. Hail King George-- How Ironic.... God save the queen.

Moore is the ultimate spindoctor. Unfortunately most of his facts are nonexistent, out of context, or overblown. I'll post it as many times as he pops up.

Favorite one liner about Moore: Should a 320lb man advise us on the evils of overconsumtion?

He's a living example of his own hipocrisy.

More ninjas would be cool.

My name is Robert and I can't stop thinking about ninjas. These guys are cool; and by cool, I mean totally sweet.

I am also pro-ninja

Well, shit. I can't argue with this.

The central points of BFC are pretty solid, the US is a violent country (for a 1st world) and it has a violent propogandized media. Ok? All the facts that are gone through in the 'what a wonderful world' sequence is information you can verify anywhere. Its not first rate entertainment or politics, and you shouldn't even call it journalism, but Moore is ok.

moore is a nut, but for christ's sake, the hypocracy goes all the way to the top. I for one don't believe everything he says - i hope you don't believe everything rush says.

I wouldn't take for fact anything ANYONE tells me without some kind of independent verification. And you can't even get to that point IF YOU AREN'T ALLOWED TO SEE THE FUCKING MOVIE.

I don't need to see / hear shit from Moore that I can't from other (better) sources. He's a fictionist that passes himself off as documentary film maker. For muhammed's sakes, he won an Oscar for a doctored up movie that was passed off as Non-Fiction. Gimme a break, Moore's a lying sack of shit and a propagator of disinfo sho'

better sources? with the exception of Salon and the London Times (which i only think I've heard of, but cannot claim to have read), have you honestly ever heard of any of the article sources listed in moorelies.com prior to going to that website? We can probably figure out who gunowners.com is but exactly who is whatever-dude.com and why is this source so reliable?


Maybe i just don't spend enough time on the internet.

i don't mean to progress to a flame war. I personally want to see the movie, you don't. thats cool.

better sources? with the exception of Salon and the London Times (which i only think I've heard of, but cannot claim to have read), have you honestly ever heard of any of the article sources listed in moorelies.com prior to going to that website? We can probably figure out who gunowners.com is but exactly who is whatever-dude.com and why is this source so reliable?


Maybe i just don't spend enough time on the internet.

that was odd.

Huh.

I think I'll submit more links like this.

AcheronDCS:"... But BFC was pretty straight-foward facts, ... "

Have a few pints with me: Pint 1

Pint 2

Pint 3

Pint 4

Afterwards we can bowl if you're still up for it.

I enjoy both pints and bowls...

I did a little reading and yes, many were off. But once again, the general points remain. I will not however be forced into the position of defending the fat bastard.

Oh and I didn't read your cleverly arranged links.

Why do people find it suprising that politicians (yes, Moore is a politician) are full of shit? I mean, come on! That's what they do best.

Well don't ignore them becuase they're cleverly arranged--

ignore them because you'd rather not get your second amendment politics straight.

I provide those links (chock full of entertainment and facts) to illustrate how wrong Michael Moore is in BFC, and how suspect this new project of his must be.

Frankly, I won't see this new project just in case I find myself agreeing with its conclusions.

I'm going to assert here that Bush & Co. don't tell lies to us, it's just that Micheal Moores lies sound so much more appealing that folks tend to buy into them without testing their substance.

"I'm NOT going to assert here that Bush & Co. don't tell lies to us, it's just that Micheal Moores lies sound so much more appealing that folks tend to buy into them without testing their substance."

excuse me.

Clearly Moore's filmaking is somewhat manipulative, and his figures are off. What I'm saying is that his central points about violence are pretty straight forward. America's place at the highest end of 1st world violence and associated indicators is unquestioned.

Second, I was never talking about second ammendmant politics. Was anyone?

"Second, I was never talking about second ammendmant politics. Was anyone?"

Actually, in a way, yes, you brought up 2nd amendment politics by asserting:

"But BFC was pretty straight-foward facts, yeah with a very opinionated tilt to it,..."

If BFC (in which 2nd amendment politics is a central issue) is indicative of Micheal Moore's work (and I think we can agree that it is) and that it might indicate the tenor and quality of his latest project (which I think is fair to assume) and you assert that the fact s in BFC were pretty straight forward (which you do) and I disagree -- then it is incumbent upon me to demonstrate otherwise ... yes?

Summary: you say MM's facts in BFC are straight forward -- I say they are neither straight forward nor facts and I then provide my reasons for saying so.

If your point is that this new project will contain the same genuine level of truth in fact as BFC, I'm inclined to agree. If you further assert that those fact's will not be complete bullshit as BFC was, then I am inclined to diasgree.

Have I sufficiently gotten us back on topic?

So let me get this straight: You watch Moore's films which project an opinion you like, even if he's manufacturing or misquoting facts?

I'm okay with that. =/

I know all about hobbitses, too.

Whoh now. I said Moore's filmaking 'somewhat manipulative', and that 'his figures are off' . Yeah I think there is some truth in what he does, and if he deliberately manufactures and misquote facts, it may make me dislike him and question his credibility, but its not going to make me disagree with things he says that I already believe to be true.

And yeah I would assume the 'tenor and quality' will continue, so probably the new movie will have similiar problems as BFC.

At least we can agree on the ninjas.

If I sit through another Moore movie, can I have a pet Ninja?

Acheron's right, Moore has been known to selectively report things, in a worse way than he accuses the media of doing. For example, in Bowling for Columbine, he mentions that the US has about 11,000 deaths from handguns per year. While that may be true, he fails to mention other nations who have similar or worse records. The city of Sao Paulo, Brazil, has on average 2,000 murders a MONTH. With or without guns, that's significantly higher than the US, and it's only a city IN Brazil, not the entire country.

He's going to have to do a much better job of reporting the facts on this one if he wants to convince me.

Look at all these right wing brain washies comming out to post. Most of these names I have never seen. SOmeone somewhere in some republican help christian church must have pushed the free thought alarm and all your crosses started glowing in a signal of someone hating your freedom. Like fish to aquaman you answer the call. Well done. I must get it out of my system now before the next amendment to the patriot act forbids it.

paranoia is a dangerous illness. get help...

Paranoia like questioning things are are real fucking shakey to begin with? Your right knowledge is bullshit. You make one lovely ostritch. (Since you don't believe in freedom of information I will have to go ahead and tell you that ostiches bury thier heads in the sand.)

Quickly, Reaganites! The Butt-phone is ringing! Everyone stick their head in their ass at once! The only way to protect our freedom is deny ourselves of it!

Ostriches don't bury their heads in the sand. I'm not a Reaganite, I'm a human being...hehe. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Although I'm not licensed to hand out free ninjas, click to learn how to become one yourself!

I would like you to all hudle in the corner close your eyes and repeat after me 'If I close my eyes real tight and have faith in others and do my best to ignore all opposing views and logic the world will be allright again' Repeat till ded.

BB: Please don't tell me you give Micheal Moore the least bit of credibility.

Pointing out that MM is lying punk in no way indicates that right wing brain washies are saying truth.

It's just admitting that left wing brain washies lie too. That's all.

It's ok -- think about the little garden -- think about the other gnomes.

HAHA no I think that guy is an asshead for sure. Funny? yes he used to have a tv show and the shit he pulled was very funny. There really is no truth, you just have to take a little from each side and know that everything has a spin on it and kind of figure shit out for yourself.

No! That would require independant thought! I must have a easily understandable doctrine spouted idiots!

Oh and the entire point of those violent death numbers was to indicate that the US was the most violent of FIRST WORLD NATIONS. You don't to a genius to know that the US is less dangerous than Iran or Brazil, and you definitely don't have to be a genius to know that it is more dangerous than Western Europe.

I'm not sure that the U.S. is more violent than England, or Austrailia, or Canada even.

Maybe in total numbers, but then in total numbers there are just more of us.

How about violence per square mile?

That sounds fair.

There should be a fact check on that.

No not per sq. mile. If we're talking about violent gun deaths, yeah US wins big, even over many third world nations. This was one of the central points in BFC. Here's a little citation if you are interested; as for violent deaths in general, I haven't found a good source online yet.

http://www.guncite.com/cnngunde.html

actually this site has most of the needed info

'Police often raid the homes of those suspected of having weapons.'

I'd like to see homicide rates with population taken into account. I know we'll still be higher, but it would be interesting...while we're at it, how many ninja-to related deaths are there in the US v. Japan? (...ninja-to = sword)

how do we know that you characters are not lying? Saying that someone is being a liar is a cop-out. Lies... truths.. same fucking difference. Hand guns.. war? Nuclear bombs... life.. peace... bars of soap... crap-sticks.. who cares... the main thing that we should be looking at is that its ALL fucked up. Generally, no one has the power to show you a different side of the story.. sure... there are people that would like to.. but people like you and i dont really get a chance to. I respect the fact that MM gets a chance to. Bullshit or not... at least he is making people 'think'.

There is much more to this crazy little planet than Paul hucking ass thru the north east screaming that the british are coming.

People are kept in balance BECAUSE there are wars and lies and crap-sticks. Do I like this? No... but for now... that is the way it is. Humanity has not grown up yet.

I think MM is doing a service to show us the flaws in this system. He may be stretching things a bit.. but honestly.. how in the fuck can you cover the ENTIRE god damn planet. Things are too complex and the public knows too much. But, we insist that we know nothing.

Am i being left-wingish? Do i hope for peace and all that 'good' stuff? No... I mean.. fuck no.. where would all the exciting action movies come from? Strife is pretty cool. In fact, its awesome. But stupidity... that is quite different. Movies like that suck.

Han Solo would hardly be as cool as he was without fucking boba fett around.

We will continue to destroy ourselves as long as we are alone on this crappy little planet. Its just that when we have leaders like the Bush Administration leading the way, we are going to be a little pissed off and confused. This country is embarassing. Not because of the general public,but mainly because of the people that lead it.

Fuck the police.

I would cast my vote toward intent rather than whether or not someone is telling a truth or lie...but too much of one or the other isn't healthy, IMO.

Funny sidenote: One of the sanskrit words for war translates to 'desire for more cows'.

I'm hittin' In-N-Out Burger for lunch.

AcheronDCS,

re: http://www.guncite.com/cnngunde.html

Guns being the best way kill yourself or others, I won't dispute that the nation with the most guns and the smartest people will use guns to kill themselves and others if they are available.

What I'd like to see is the rate of TOTAL violence in the US compared to other countries. Dead by baseball bat, knife, pipe bomb, stoning, etc. is just as dead, and maybe more violently so, as dead by gun.

That we have the most guns is not in dispute. Smartest people...uh sure.

http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/homicide.htm

There is a table on here; I'll look for something more legit when I have time. I wouldn't doubt that the US is still at the top for 1st world nations.

Acheron: Not really... compared to nations in the Middle East, and also places like Russia and Africa, we don't have that many guns, per capita.

As I mentioned earlier, Brazil has quite possibly the highest murder rate per 'square mile,' when you consider the population density in the areas around Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo, which have many, many more murders per year than the US.

Here is a slightly more statistical link for you. Hope the HTML works.

So it turns out that S. Africa is the worst, overall. No Middle Eastern countries are mentioned, for some reason. I'm sure if you do the research you'll find that Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Jordan and Israel hold up pretty well against those figures.

I think more over, that if you add pipe bombing, and knifings, and stick beatings and stonings to the violence statistics (in recognition that violence is committed with not only guns) you'll find that many of your so called civilized countries, particularly some with restrictive gun laws, have violent crime rates higher than those in the US.

The thing is, most anti-2nd Amendment nuts don't like to admit that unarmed victims are easy prey, and as a consequence get preyed upon more frequently. Those fukers alwys treat gun violence as if it's the only violence out there.

Smart folks like us should be smart enough to know better.

Our government has three branches, which theoretically serves as a checks and balance. I think what alot of people don't realize is that the very fact that we have a 2nd ammendment and have the right to bear arms, we serve as the checks and balance for the government. Which is why it was written into the Constitution. I'm not advocating gun violence, but I just want people to realize that its an important right that we have. Nazi Germany couldn't have happened if the citizens weren't disarmed. When gun control was brought about in Australia, gun violence shot up to like 200%, that's because all the criminals still had theirs. If someone were to break into your home with a gun and you were unarmed, you're at their mercy. Its all about choice and being able to choose.

Ok cmon now we're talking about First world nations! Figure it out! If gun violence is off the spectrum according to every available source, on the order of 3 times more than most European nations (plus Aus. Japan, which is much lower), I mean england and Wales has a .41 rate as oposed to to the US' 14.24(the guncite article I posted), why would other forms of violence be significant to tip the balance? Is there any reason why violence by bombs, knives, sticks, etc. would be enough to significantly impact a 3:1 ratio? Maybe in Indonesia but not in the 1st world. Stop telling me Brazil, Afghanistan has more violence than the US! I'm not an idiot! And of course its quite possible that they have higher gun ownership because of black markets, etc. Does any one of the things you've said counter the argument that the US is at the top of the first world for gun violence and violence in general? We also have the highest rates of malnutrition. We have been at the top of such social indicators for a long time for obvious reasons; we have the shittiest health care system of the 1st world, and spend less money per capita on social spending than any other 1st country. US wages have been stagnating or declining since the 70's. This is all pretty simple and I don't understand why its become such a contentious issue when its so amazingly obvious. And of course, I'm not preaching against gun ownership, never was.

All right, this is the second link I've submitted that has gotten 50+ comments to it.

I forgot where I was going with this.

You get a gold star.

kewl!

I really like Michael Moore. In my opinion, he was the best James Bond ever...though I can understand why some prefer John Connery.

Although, the other thread was pure shit, so maybe I should only get half a star.

hey this was pretty much shit too

zero stars!

Nards.

:(

AcheronDCS: I'm not an idiot.

Maybe you should rethink your position, sir.

AcheronDCS: we have the shittiest health care system of the 1st world, and spend less money per capita on social spending than any other 1st country.

We have the BEST health care system in the world, you just don't get it for free.

Uhhh, Isn't this supposed to be a democracy? The last I knew we lived in a free market capitalist economy. If you want to save the lazy, no good, rat-bastard scumbags who want to suck the government tit, do it own your own fucking dime.

Discussing gun politics is pointless when one participant flat refuses to investigate their facts.

It is also pointless to discuss Michael Moore's investigation of facts when one participant refuses to aknowledge that using facts for the purpose misleading makes suspect the conclusions of that investigation.

So back to the topic -- Michael Moore's work is patently misleading. I don't think anyone is disputing that (except perhaps AcheronDCS).

So let me ask this: If we are in agreement Michael Moore's work is misleading, what is his point in misleading folks?

To advance his political agenda.

Duh.

Ok.

What would that political agenda them be?

If I see anything like 'to get Hillary Clinton in the White house to start a 1,000 year Clinton dynasty' I'll fuking kill you with animal friendly, eco-safe, macrobiotic hemp-soy cultivated by indigenous proletariate peasants dedicated to saving the rainforest.

OK?!?!?!?

Why, to get ----- and ----- in the White House to start a 1,000 year ------ dynasty.

Duh.

:|

>:)

TIME WARP