I think the worst part about the whole thing is that fact that the general population is convinced that hydrocarbon type fire brought the WTC's down. Not to mention when you look at pictures of the debris you can see how the steel beams resemble a broken lego buildings (cough...demolitions) but whatever, this kind of talk shouldn't be tolerated...!!!!

I'm not yet sure what you're onto, mineralGod, but I am familiar with structural engineering procedures(including studies of the WTC collapse) and I'm genuinely curious (I myself am NO professional on the actual engineering system of the beast, btw) about what you think the building collapse was caused by. Were the steel beams the guilty failure? Framing? The system of the buildings' original construction? In a present time where too much focus is on why 9-11 happened as opposed to how we can PREVENT similar events like it, I think experts on making structures as blast-proof as possible is more key than most people realize. Hit me back, good sir!

I seem to remember two airplanes crashing into them and them collapsing because the searing heat of burning jet fuel can cut right through steel.

I suppose my eyes were playing tricks on me though.

Wow. You must have had quite a close-up view of the jet fuel burning and cutting through the metal and being the only cause of the skyscrapers collapsing. I take back my previous reply. SexyNinja has it all concluded. ;-)

(i hate to do this, but.... since i am frequently misinterpreted by even those who claim to be "chill"),

J/K SexyNin.

S'all good.

I just have a problem with people who think that there was some big conspiracy that allowed 9/11 to happen. Take the "Bush Knew" crowd. Look, decide. Bush is either a fuktard or an evil genius. I tend to believe he's the former, but the conspiracy folks jump from one to the other. It was simple failures by our intelligence agencies that led to 9/11.

Amen, brutha. Peeps are giving Bush and his administration WAY too much credit by saying they were conspirators, and saying they're evil OR geniuses is putting forth two adjectives that are equally preposterous in relation to the people in question. As for "fuktard", well... I'm not gonna say he isn't one, because in my opinion, he is. However, that doesn't change the fact that probability dictates that he's going to be running our show for another 4 years, in which case, I hope the #1 goal will not be to disect 9/11 or any pre-9/11 intelligence, but to establish the security we need to prevent another "9/11", which is what the scrutiny should really be focusing on...

Find the maximun temperature of burning jet fuel and then find the boiling point of steel / metal / mineral. Then try to find a case history of when a building has collapsed due to fire. Also if the WTC were melted down, why was there so much smoke?? Looke more like a smoldering fire to me, also.....sprinkler systems??? Anywho, just a thought...........

Kindly allow me to edit myself. Fundamentaly, and even in simple definition, "probability" cannot "dictate" anything. I take the subject at hand seriously enough to nitpick my own replies here as such. Heh :) Go figure.

Okay then approx temp of burning jet fuel 550 degrees Celcius, Boiling point of steel around 1510 degrees Celcius. Also eye witness reports of explosions from people that were evacuating. But yeah its just a 'conspiracy' so who cares?

I don't.

I'm quite sure that I'm right, and you are wrong. I assume you think the same way about your position and me, so let's not engage in futile attempts to convert each other.

true dat, true dat

I love this.

Okay then approx temp of burning jet fuel 550 degrees Celcius, Boiling point of steel around 1510 degrees Celcius. Also eye witness reports of explosions from people that were evacuating

also.....sprinkler systems??? Anywho, just a thought...........

I love it two Big Macs with gold onions, on a Kaiser. I also like to think about gold in my spare time.

gold onions? I've never heard of those but I'd like to hear about them while I'm subscribing to your newsletter.

These folks look like they did their homework but I still don't believe it.

Alright ninja!! I'm gonna turn some dirt into gold and mail it to you!!! Anyway I guess this one should drop. Megarad fo sho my nizzlans!!

This is weird. I remember watching a Frontline report (or some such show) where they blamed the jet fuel, and showed how it caused the collapse. So, either tv or the internet is lying to me or it's late and I'm going to bed.

No matter what conspiracy theory regarding 9-11, in any facet or regard there may be, fuk 'em. As I said, the important thing for ANY administration to consider is how to PREVENT this sort of thing, not waste time dwelling on how a past one maybe kinda sorta could have been prevented blah blah i'm also going to bed.

well at least one of you has a clue, but lets look at the big picture here:

terrorists spend some time in some shitty flight school and come out able to maneuver 747s into buildings

terrorists somehow maneuver planes at some 5-8 Gs (humanly impossible)

NORAD and the FCC completely abrogate their intercept directives (FYI when golfer Payne Stewarts plane went awry, it was surrounded by fighters in under 15 min)

Bush hears of attack, remains at elementary school reading about a goat

Bush later tells media about how he felt when he saw the FIRST plane strike on tv, too bad that didnt make it on the news till much time after

did I mention that the Bushes and Bin Ladens are and have been business partners since the 70s ? this is well documented, furthermore when all planes were grounded, the Bin Laden family was flown to safety by the FBI

but no Bush didnt do it, he is an idiot, however Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld are not, these guys had talked about such an event for years prior

and SexNinja if you really believe what you see on corporate news is any where near the truth you are quite naive, go read Manufacturing Consent if you want to know how the American Propaganda machine works

Researching the Reichstag fire a little you begin to think that the nazis probably did not start the fire, that it was probably started by some addled dutch guy, the one and the same that was convicted and executed for it. This does not alter the way the nazis profited from the fire and through it were able to establish their third reich.

Alright I was about to give up, if you want some real news go to www.infowars.com. At first some of you may scoff it off as Conspiracy bullshit, but the thing is that most of all the links go to major sites, its just backpage news, meanwhile I don't thing there isn't a person in America that didn't hear about Janet Jackson's tit. Meanwhile real events are happening, but whatever, point is you won't be able to ignore these spooky tales forever, especially if the Patriot Act 2 gets out. (Side note, the first Patriot Act was basically forced into law, no one even was able to read it) Also adding to what sugarslim was saying about the media - 80% of all media or more is owned by the same people. Much like the Democrats and Republicans, they both work for the same company. The two parties are like Coke and Pepsi, it doesn't matter which one you choose, you're still fucking drinking Cola !!!!
But I won't worry about that, I got too much gold to shine and think about.

I know I'm comming into this one late but since I worked on the rubble for most of three months my input might have a little value.

First, I didn't see or hear about any puddles of melted steel. I did see some puddles of melted aluminum. Melting point around 600F.

Second, Metal does not have to liquify to structurally fail. It just has to get hot enough to soften and thats exaxtly what I saw evidence of. 2'steel I-beams bent and twisted like they were made from play dough. Once the I beams at the site of the fire began to deform they lost their structural integrity. This allowed the stories above to collapse. The shock of that collapse caused the floors below to telescope into eachother.

Third. How much dust would you make if you took several million tons of burned concrete and drop it from a height of about a quarter mile. A damn big one I bet. And it would look an awful lot like an explosion because in effect, that's what it is.

Forth. The wreckage of the planes caused temperatures to go far higher than the burning jet fuel. The ignition temperature of Aluminum is fairly low but the temperatures produced by burning aluminum can reach about 2000F especially when burning aluminum is in contact with Iron or steel. Aluminum and iron, by the way, are what thermite is made from.

I'm so conflicted.

I can't decide if I should have cereal or pizza .

Put the pizza in the cereal bown and pour the cereal and milk on top.

Cereal has won.

Thank you azron, sugar, mineral lube, and sexninja. You're better than cartoons.

I had Cap'n Crunch for breakfast.

Now there's a delicious conspiracy deserving Erich von Däniken's attentions if I ever ate one.

Count Chocula is a conspiracy if there ever was one.

And what the fuck is up with lucky Charms? And Fruit Loops? Pure sneaky evil!

Rumor has it that the Trix Rabbit is Tony the Tiger's bitch.

And my rice crispies keep telling me to kill!

Never ever ever talk shit about Trix again. If you ever, ever, evar, EVAR, evever, evvver, EVAR, EVVVVVR, EEERRRRVGVGGG

I am sure that sticking a jet into a building at high speeds would be something that is pretty difficult to overcome through engineering marf. And to womever posted that 5 to 8 G is humanly impossible..HAHAHAHA idiot. I had lasagna for breakfast, by the way.

5 to 8 G is humanly possible, fighter pilots have to endure 5 or 6 G during training. Though, for only like 20 to 30 seconds at a time.
Anyway, my dad worked on the rubble project for months so I asked him about it. He says that it was a combination of structural failure that led to the start of the collapse. Then throw in the fact that a 500mph airplane hits a building with such a high force, a lot of the anti-fire stuff went flying.
I would say that the jet fuel helped to turn aluminum and iron into thermite, which sprays molten iron in all directions. I would also have to say that due to the fact that this was an office building, there was a ton of shit that could burn nicely in it, resulting a bunch of smoke. Throw in the fact that concrete is basically dried crushed rock, and you have a very large cloud of dust.