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Notes on Veganism, Rights and the Absence of a Plant Liberation Front

By greenrd in Op-Ed
Mon Jul 08, 2002 at 09:30:34 AM EST
Tags: etc (all tags)
/etc

There are many advocacy outlets on the web putting the case for a vegan diet - for the animals, for your health and for the planet. What I want to do in this article is not yet another bulleted list of pro-vegan arguments - worthy (or not) as they may be. As a practicing vegan myself, I want to make an attempt to explore - perhaps not fully answer - some of the tougher and/or less well-trodden challenges to "ethical vegan"1 philosophies. The sort of things which often come up in conversation with non-vegans, but are rarely covered by A-B-C guides to veganism: How should human rights and animal rights be weighed up - for example when animal rights activists take direct action against a demonstrably cruel scientist? Isn't veganism a bit extreme - no milk or cheese or even honey? Doesn't it also have a pretty arbitrary cut-off-point?

Not to mention, why is there an Animal Liberation Front but no Plant Liberation Front?


Some of these challenges are perhaps quite light-hearted - but I think that even those that may seem most absurd can still shed some light on differences in assumptions or "worldviews" between vegans and non-vegans. I don't claim to provide the full and final answer to all of these points, but I hope to tackle them in an open-minded and non-dogmatic way: neither ducking embarassing questions, nor providing crisp but wrong answers. Of course, as veganism is highly controversial, many readers will likely view that stated aim with a wry grin.

This article was prompted by a heated debate on the #kuro5hin IRC channel, in which I was criticised for failing to defend my views adequately. I hope that this medium will allow me to express myself in a more leisurely and coherent manner - away from the rapid cut-and-thrust of scintillating IRC repartee, which leaves a slow thinker such as myself at a disadvantage.

Ethical Veganism1, for me, in a nutshell

All ethical vegans (see note 1) tend to agree that cruelty to animals is a bad thing, that raising awareness of it in appropriate ways is a good thing, and so on. Many of us have pretty much convergent ideas on a wide range of animal-related and broader issues. However, as I will be dealing with some areas in which there is not necessarily a cohesive, well-agreed-upon consesus opinion, I can't reasonably claim to speak for all, or even many, other vegans. Thus, right from the outset I want to make it clear that these are my personal thoughts, which are not necessarily representative of the opinions of vegans in general - although they may be in some cases.

So, perhaps I should start by answering the most basic question: what does it mean to be a vegan? In theory, a vegan is someone who does not use, buy or consume any products - whether they be food, clothes, or anything else - with ingredients or constituents derived directly from animals above a certain level of complexity.

1 Throughout this piece, the concept "People who are vegan primarily for ethical reasons" will be abbreviated to "Ethical vegans" or just "Vegans". There are a small minority of vegans who choose to follow the diet, sometimes for health reasons, but do not fully agree with the animal-rights-based arguments for veganism. However, most "converts" come to veganism through being persuaded by ethics-based (in particular, empathy-based) arguments - and it is this sort of veganism that I am focusing on in this article.

Just a minute! Animals "above a certain level of complexity"? Where did that come from?

Ethical veganism is not like a mindless observance of a religious ritual, executed by its adherents just because the Torah or the Koran specifies it. It is not designed to demonstrate the obediance or reverence of believers to their chosen deity. It has a definite down-to-earth point to it. (Or two. Or three.)

I'll explain my "level of complexity" clarification below, but first I want to avoid skating over the key point here. Different vegans will explain their reasons for becoming or staying vegan in different ways, but undoubtedly a common thread for many, many vegans is not wanting to economically support the literal institutionalised barbarity that comes under the heading of "factory farming". A short list of examples:

  • Battery hens crammed together into cages, so small they cannot even in stretch their wings. Truly, battery farms are a shining example (if you'll pardon the expression) of the genesis of the term "factory farming". The birds are reduced to mechanical production units, treated as nothing more than statistics.
  • Sows confined in stalls so small they cannot even turn around - nor fulfill their maternal instincts to look after their young, which may be placed on the other side of their "cages".
  • De-beaking, de-tailing, and tooth-pulling - sometimes without anaesthetic - practices which are to a large extent a response to mental illnesses of overcrowding. In spacious conditions pigs and chickens do not generally feel the need to attack their fellow creatures so viciously - it is only the ridiculous levels of overcrowding in factory farms that drive them to these highly aggressive behaviour modes.
  • Rogue - but undisciplined - "meat-packers" (translation: slaughterhouse workers) playing sick "games" of torture and mutilation with helpless animals. Or, perhaps worse, simply disregarding systematic breaking of basic animal welfare principles, such as the principle that birds should be unconscious before being dunked into a scalding hot tank to de-feather them.
  • Animals packed into vehicles and ships so densely, and with so little regard for basic needs such as water, that many of them die en-route.
I don't like delving into the graphic detail of these abuses any more than you would like to hear me rant on about them, so I deliberately kept this list much briefer than I could have. However, a wealth of books and websites are available to fill in the details, such as for example Gail Eisnitz's shocking and self-explanatory Slaughterhouse, Erik Marcus's Vegan: The New Ethics of Eating - and of course, everyone's favorite cuddly animal rights group, PETA.org. McSpotlight and their coverage of the infamous "McLibel trial" is also worth looking into - as McDonalds ended up admitting in court that some of the allegations made against them were accurate.

So veganism, for me, is partly about fighting cruelty by not supporting it in the first place. It's only a small step, but at the same time it's a large one - the more people that go vegan, and the more people that raise their children vegan, the less demand there'll be for animal products, so the theory goes.

For me, being anti-cruelty is the primary factor in being vegan. I don't usually object to painless killing of non-human animals, as long as it doesn't upset anyone.

But isn't it possible to be both "anti-cruelty" and to eat meat?

What meat-eaters should ask themselves, if they're truly concerned about cruelty, is: Can they be reasonably confident that the food they buy is cruelty-free? And if not, what are they going to do about it?

There are a range of possible responses, such as: Trying to switch to producers which don't use factory farming techniques; cutting down on meat; going vegan; holding an anti-factory-farming stall outside a supermarket; pressing for less lax laws and regulations, and less lax enforcement of those regulations. Or, of course, wringing ones hands and doing nothing.

So what makes veganism stand out? Aren't any of the above decisions just as valuable, or even more, compared to giving up animal products?

The same thing that makes a vegetarian wearing leather shoes stand out, or an anti-Nike activist wearing Nike shoes stand out. If a person professes to be concerned about the plight of factory farmed animals, and then continues to shovel money into the arms of the factory farmers when they could feasibly make other food choices, perhaps there is a question-mark over how sincere that person really is.

Now, having got the moral-advocacy-oriented part, which I feel very strongly about, out of the way, I'll move on to:

Why draw the line here?

After all, even if someone agrees that factory farming is a Bad Thing[tm], and even decides that they want to reduce the degree to which they support the animal industries, it doesn't logically follow that they should draw the line where the Vegan Society draws its line. Isn't it asking a bit much to expect people to give up not only beef, but chicken, turkey, ham, milk, cheese, butter and eggs as well?

What are you left with? Rice and baked beans?

Well, not exactly. You've got fruit, vegetables, pulses, breads, rice, sprouts, pasta, etc. which still leaves you with a hell of a lot of variety for the creative cook - and even vegan chocolate, or carob if you prefer. And if you're lucky and you're in an area with a moderate-to-high concentration of vegans (relatively speaking), you might find things like vegan "not ham", vegan "cheeze", or vegan "ice cream" at your supermarket or health food store. New substitutes seem to crop up every year. It's really not such a hard life, I've found - even being a "fast food vegan" who hates cooking anything non-trivial.

But what is the reasoning behind boycotting eggs and dairy products? Battery hens we've already covered, and in the case of milk it's again due to cruelty: briefly, bovine growth hormones and breeding for large udders has lead to widespread foot problems and mastitis; also, the dairy trade is rather closely linked to the vile veal trade. Veal is a byproduct of milk production, not the other way around.

Basically, for me, once I'd made the decision to go fully vegetarian, it didn't seem that impossible to go the whole hog and go vegan as well. It was daunting, yes - but I weighed up in my head the convenience and pleasure of cream cheese, cakes, milk chocolate and things like that, with in my view the moral gravity of supporting the dairy and battery farm industries - and I decided there was absolutely no comparison.

It's ultimately got to be a personal decision. Obviously to me the choice was clear and stark - but equally obviously, the same choice is not so obvious to everyone, otherwise everyone would be going vegan by now. There's no objective measure by which I can say "Reducing the number of calves bred for veal is more important than eating cream cake". All I can really do is dig up facts on animal abuse, the health benefits of a vegan diet and so on, and appeal to empathy. (Called by unkind souls a "guilt trip" - but what else can one do to call attention to the gravity of the situation and to people's personal responsibility to do something about it?)

But isn't the cut-off point arbitrary? What about prawns? Honey? Carrots, even?

I actually do avoid honey, but I don't think it's very likely that bees can feel pain or suffer. The Vegan Society says avoiding honey is optional. It's no big deal to avoid honey though, so I just stay on the "moral safe side", as it were.

The key question, for me, is, "Is the organism in question panient?" - in other words, does it have the capacity to feel pain and/or suffer. And this is, at least in principle, a scientific question - although it's rather embarassingly difficult to answer within today's current scientific framework. Scientists who have studied the matter, such as Marian Stamp Dawkins, say that factors such as evolutionary reasoning, and the structural similarity of nervous systems among higher vertebrates, strongly suggest that many other "higher" animals are panient. So sheep and cows probably can feel pain, but bees probably can't.

As for plants, well: OK, I admit it, for the sake of argument. No-one can prove that a carrot doesn't feel pain. But let's turn this around. No-one can actually prove that you really feel pain either. Or, put it this way: if a highly realistic futuristic robot was programmed to mimic your behaviour exactly, and it swore and hopped about when it dropped a heavy weight on its feet, would the robot really be in pain?

Or, put yet another way, is a television afraid when it shows a horror movie and emits screaming noises?

The point is that pain cannot be defined as how a thing reacts. It's inherently an internal, mental thing, and hence not directly accessible to the scientific method as we know it. (This is a controversial philosophical position, but I believe the examples above, and other more subtle examples that can easily be cooked up, demonstrate its correctness.) All we can do is make certain (reasonable?) assumptions. For other humans it's fairly safe: no sane person seriously doubts that other people are in general panient.

In the case of non-human "higher" animals, you can either defer to the contemporary scientific consensus, which is that they are panient; or go with certain "Englightenment" thinkers of yore, and say "This dog is just a machine. When you kick it, the squeal is just a reflex reaction, it feels nothing. So it's perfectly OK to tie down and dissect live dogs without anaesthetic". Again, a rigorous proof either way isn't really possible.

As for the plants, I really find it hard to take this particular challenge to veganism at all seriously. For one thing, there's no Plant Liberation Front. In fact, no serious organisation or individuals have set themselves the task of protecting plants from cruelty. No-one seriously says to me when I'm talking about veganism "Hey I totally agree with what you're saying, Robin, but I think there's also a problem with cruelty to plants. Wheat should be injected with plant anaesthetic before it's harvested!"

I won't speculate too much about the motives of those who make arguments like "But what about plants?" Suffice it to say that trolling and joking are not the only things that can drive people to champion apparently absurd positions.

But surely no-one can avoid contributing to oppression in some form, whether it be saving money at a bank that invests in sweatshops, or buying from someone who then goes and spends that money on pate de fois gras, or whatever? If you trace things far out enough, everyone's implicated

Maybe - still, there's a question of degree of culpability there. Anyway, not being able to save the world by clicking your fingers is no excuse for not putting in any effort.

But what about all the animals that are killed by combine harvesters each year?

Indeed. Or, all the animals that are killed by road traffic each year. Both are a serious problem, and of course I support research into ways of deterring animals from roads and fields about to be harvested.

I used to argue that since cattle are fed on grain anyway, and one pound of beef takes several pounds of grain to produce, eating meat only increases the amount of grain that has to be produced and thus increases the chance of a poor little fieldmouse being squished.

To a certain extent this is true, but it's perhaps a shaky argument. After all - and this is one of the points that vegan websites often neglect to mention, because it doesn't help their cause - animals are also very good at turning food which we can't eat (grass, seeds etc.) into food that we can eat (meat). The fact that they are often fed grain is a result of economics, not biological necessity.

The person who asked me the combine harvester question was clearly implying that eating "industrially-produced" plants was actually no better than eating meat, because of the animals killed and maimed in the process. I don't have a watertight answer to that one, but firstly it's incidental and not necessary to producing grain - just as some people say "Farming per se is not wrong, it's just factory farming that's abusive". A rebuttal to that is that, allegedly, feeding the world with lower-tech harvesting techniques would not be feasible.

I would say that both aims - abolishing factory farming and regressing to more manual harvesting - are totally unrealistic under the current capitalist system - it would take a socialist revolution, massive technological upheaval or an eco-crash returning us to more primitive times to acheive either of them. Boycotting cruel farms (e.g. by going vegan) is actually more realistic than expecting them all to be cleaned up by government regulation, which is just not going to happen, for economic reasons (although less lax regulations on the animal industries are always a good thing). It is the meat-eating "animal welfarists" who are the pie-in-the-sky ones, even more so than the vegans.

Secondly, I find it hard to believe that the number of animals killed by accident in the course of making my daily bread is at all comparable to the number of animals that have to be killed to feed one person eating meat daily.

Doesn't valuing nonhuman animals on a par with humans lead to the converse: valuing humans on a par with mere animals? And doesn't this implicitly justify animal rights terrorism / Nazism / insert bad thing here?

Only if the oppression of Palestinians, and valuing Palestinian lives on a par with Israeli lives, justifies suicide bombing Israeli civilians (or perhaps I should say soldiers, since animal rights extremists typically target scientists who they believe are torturing animals). This is not really a new question.

Oh, and my answer is no, of course.

But come on. Here's the clincher. Everyone knows vegans are a bunch of hippies who never bathe, look pale and skinny and don't get out much, right?

Aren't you confusing vegans with the readership profile of k5? *ducks*

Well I don't know really, to be honest. I'd love to have a statistical survey on the personalities and looks of vegans at my fingertips (that's always been the allegation that's stumped me the most). But unfortunately I don't have one. Er. Well, you could look at Alicia Silverstone, for example. Or the kickass poet Benjamin Zephania. Or - ah yes, that's what I was looking for: these vegan and vegetarian athletes

No, boys and girls, veganism doesn't doom you to a life of being as skinny and weak as a beanpole - or indeed a fat couch potato. (Genetics and laziness can though.)

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Notes on Veganism, Rights and the Absence of a Plant Liberation Front | 589 comments (556 topical, 33 editorial, 3 hidden)
The thing is... (3.40 / 5) (#3)
by axxeman on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 02:23:31 PM EST

Vegans matter as much to the "factory farming" industry as overclockers do to the computer hardware industry.

Which is to say, not at all.

Btw, I was a health (ie not ethical) vegan for 4-5 months before I gave up on it. Not so much because it was hard, but because it's basically a religion.

Feminism is an overcompensatory drama-queen club, with extra dykes. ---- Farq

A few points... (4.83 / 6) (#4)
by leviramsey on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 02:26:50 PM EST

What meat-eaters should ask themselves, if they're truly concerned about cruelty, is: Can they be reasonably confident that the food they buy is cruelty-free? And if not, what are they going to do about it?

I'll grant that it's difficult to be certain. But one does not have to buy meat. One can hunt or one can possess animals to provide animal products.

This is one of the more interesting questions: is hunting an example of cruelty on a par with factory farming (where you get your instances of cruelty)? I know at least one otherwise-vegan who is willing to eat venison, for instance. On a related note, is possession of an animal in violation of ethical veganism?

There are a range of possible responses, such as: Trying to switch to producers which don't use factory farming techniques; cutting down on meat; going vegan; holding an anti-factory-farming stall outside a supermarket; pressing for less lax laws and regulations, and less lax enforcement of those regulations. Or, of course, wringing ones hands and doing nothing.
...
The same thing that makes a vegetarian wearing leather shoes stand out, or an anti-Nike activist wearing Nike shoes stand out. If a person professes to be concerned about the plight of factory farmed animals, and then continues to shovel money into the arms of the factory farmers when they could feasibly make other food choices, perhaps there is a question-mark over how sincere that person really is.

The examples you give don't cover switching to producers who don't use factory farming techniques (assuming that they do not wear leather, etc.).

As for the plants, I really find it hard to take this particular challenge to veganism at all seriously. For one thing, there's no Plant Liberation Front. In fact, no serious organisation or individuals have set themselves the task of protecting plants from cruelty. No-one seriously says to me when I'm talking about veganism "Hey I totally agree with what you're saying, Robin, but I think there's also a problem with cruelty to plants. Wheat should be injected with plant anaesthetic before it's harvested!"

This isn't exactly the best argument. If I formed a Plant Liberation Front....

I would say that both aims - abolishing factory farming and regressing to more manual harvesting - are totally unrealistic under the current capitalist system - it would take a socialist revolution, massive technological upheaval or an eco-crash returning us to more primitive times to acheive either of them. Boycotting cruel farms (e.g. by going vegan) is actually more realistic than expecting them all to be cleaned up by government regulation, which is just not going to happen, for economic reasons (although less lax regulations on the animal industries are always a good thing). It is the meat-eating "animal welfarists" who are the pie- in-the-sky ones, even more so than the vegans.

This could work just as well, as I see it:

I start up a for-profit, non-factory farm. I certify that I do not engage in any of the practices that you find objectionable (short of the "for-profit" part, of course... :o) ). If you (or anyone else) finds me committing these practices, I will cede title of the farmland and all the animals to you, to do with what you will (or pay some suitably large sum to you or to the vegan charity of your choice, if you do not have the ability to take ownership of hundreds of animals or manage the farmland.) I could market this as the best of both worlds: you get the tastiness of beef, chicken, turkey, eggs, etc. without the ethical qualms. Each dollar spent is a dollar that doesn't go to factory farmers. Further, as we're actually buying cattle and such, are we not driving the cost of the raw materials for the factory-farmers up?



pasta (3.50 / 2) (#5)
by kitty vacant on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 02:29:33 PM EST

You've got fruit, vegetables, pulses, breads, rice, sprouts, pasta..

Um, aren't eggs used in the production of pasta?

==
Go on... Give us a snare rush!
A motive (4.37 / 16) (#7)
by pyramid termite on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 02:39:25 PM EST

I won't speculate too much about the motives of those who make arguments like "But what about plants?" Suffice it to say that trolling and joking are not the only things that can drive people to champion apparently absurd positions.

If they're so absurd, why can't you come up with a real objection to them? You haven't been able to deny that plants feel pain, you haven't been able to establish that plants are less deserving of a certain kind of treatment then animals, in fact, all you've really stated as an answer to this question is that you don't see anyone getting upset about it and you can't understand the motives of anyone who would ask the question. That won't do.

Here's my motive - there is something basic about our existence here that you're avoiding - to live, we must kill or exploit other things. To argue that you won't kill or exploit the things known as animals doesn't make you any more moral than a person who kills or exploits plants or animals. You are still killing and exploiting other living things. And, eventually, you yourself will be exploited by other living things, if you have the decency to not cremate yourself selfishly so they can't. One can of course argue about the severity and circumstances of the exploitation. But don't act as if you are a more moral person because of what you choose to eat. I'm not buying it.

On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
Panient? (3.80 / 5) (#14)
by dipierro on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 03:31:44 PM EST

The key question, for me, is, "Is the organism in question panient?" - in other words, does it have the capacity to feel pain and/or suffer.

I wonder, and this is totally not a rhetorical question, do you support late term abortions which are not for the purpose of saving the life of the mother?



For those who eat meat. (2.56 / 16) (#30)
by qpt on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 04:24:32 PM EST

Author of evil, unknown till thy revolt,
Unnam'd in Heav'n, now plenteous, as thou seest
These Acts of hateful strife, hateful to all,
Though heaviest by just measure on thy self
And thy adherents: how hast thou disturb'd
Heav'ns blessed peace, and into Nature brought
Miserie, uncreated till the crime
Of thy Rebellion? how hast thou instill'd
Thy malice into thousands, once upright
And faithful, now prov'd false. But think not here
To trouble Holy Rest; Heav'n casts thee out
From all her Confines. Heav'n the seat of bliss
Brooks not the works of violence and Warr.
Hence then, and evil go with thee along
Thy ofspring, to the place of evil, Hell,
Thou and thy wicked crew; there mingle broiles,
Ere this avenging Sword begin thy doome,
Or som more sudden vengeance wing'd from God
Precipitate thee with augmented paine.

Domine Deus, creator coeli et terrae respice humilitatem nostram.

Cost (3.14 / 7) (#32)
by ShadowNode on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 04:32:43 PM EST

For me, it comes down to an argument of cost. If I saw someone eating dog, I'd yell at them and make them miserable for it. However, even though I know people are eating dog in Korea, I'm not going to fly there to yell at them.

Dogs are relatively intelligent, and that's my prime motivator. (I don't buy this "painient" nonsense; Bees probably do feel pain, but I don't care, they're too stupid to make it worth my while.) Chickens are pretty fucking stupid. I wouldn't torture one myself, and I'd give someone who was a nasty look, but I'm not going to go out of my way to stop it.

If someone's willing to do the work for me, I'll be a vegan. Until then, it's too much effort for the poor widdle chickens.



as a vegan (4.66 / 3) (#41)
by dalinian on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 05:34:10 PM EST

As a vegan, I've been thinking about these issues a lot lately. But I don't think you talked about the theoretical basis enough. For example, the "because they are panient" argument does not work for those who consider that if a being itself (because of its species) isn't capable of morality, we have no moral responsibility not to eat it simply because the being is outside all moral consideration.

I've always found that a shaky argument myself, because whether a being is itself moral or not does not seem to affect the responsibilities of those who are moral. And I feel we have a responsibility not to cause any pain that can be avoided.

And for anyone interested in going vegan: don't forget about B12!

And I wonder.... (4.00 / 5) (#44)
by Dragomire on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 05:38:39 PM EST

jokingly, with my vegan friends, that what if a scientist actually found that plants emit an extremely high pitched scream when eaten? Wouldn't that constitute cruelty to plants? =-)

I'm not against vegetarianism, or veganism, unless people take it to extremes. But I joke with vegetarians and vegans when I cook their vegie burgers on the grill, that I like to eat real food. I have canines for a reason, after all, and it isn't to chew vegie burgers. =-)

plants (4.50 / 6) (#52)
by minus273 on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 05:58:17 PM EST

actually, in  hinduism which is one religion where vegitarianism is common,   we recognise the life and conciousness of plants.. we have for centuries.
And yes there is such a thing as cruelty to plants. ..
These things alone make the veganism moral  argument fail.

Earth Liberation Front (4.00 / 2) (#56)
by humble on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 06:10:43 PM EST

Perhaps the reason there is no Plant Liberation Front is because that work is already being done (admirably) by the Earth Liberation Front?
Indymedia - Civil society's not-so-secret servicetm
A few questions (4.69 / 13) (#60)
by Cant Say on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 06:33:07 PM EST

I didn't notice these questions developed in depth elsewhere. If I missed them, please simply direct me to the proper thread.

The gist of greenrd's argument seems to be that animals suffer when used as a source of food, whereas plants do not suffer when utilized as a food source.

  1. "institutionalised [sic] barbarity
  2. greenrd does not argue that the killing of animals is inherently wrong, merely that animals should not suffer from institutionalized cruelty. By not purchasing animal products, one is certain to avoid supporting such barbarity. Does it then follow that if one purchases "free range" meat, one is absolved of the moral implications of animal suffering?

    greenrd's response is:

    If a person professes to be concerned about the plight of factory farmed animals, and then continues to shovel money into the arms of the factory farmers when they could feasibly make other food choices, perhaps there is a question-mark [sic] over how sincere that person really is.
    However, this does not answer the challenge. The author apparently assumes any purchase of meat might somehow support this barbarity. Rather, I would contend that markets respond to consumer demand. If it was obvious that money was to be made in non-barbaric animal housing, because people would purchase that food, at least some people would shift to that type of cruelty. On the other hand, if Vegans, as a whole, will not eat meat no matter what, the market has no reason to change. So Vegans are actually perpetuating animal cruelty because they do not encourage (with money) a healthy growing environment.

  3. "Plant cruelty"
  4. greenrd's answer to the question, "Why is there no Plant Liberation Front?" is: plants do not feel pain. However, he also concedes that some lower animals cannot feel pain (bees, for example). However, there is no way one can be certain about the feeling of pain. For example, when I spray ants with Raid, they struggle and convulse, in apparent pain. How do I decide they have pain? They perform an action that appears to mimic human actions of pain. The same thing occurs when I see a mistreated dog. I recognize a certain waxing of the eyes, a posture, and a behavior that somehow seems to mimic a mistreated human.

    He seems to accept the argument that because there is no PLF plants are not deserving of the same support as are animals. ("As for the plants, I really find it hard to take this particular challenge to veganism at all seriously. For one thing, there's no Plant Liberation Front.") However, I think it's the height of anthropocentrism to only recognize pain as a mimicking of a human reaction to pain.

    Veganism seems to be in a double-bind: either they commit the pathetic fallacy by attributing human emotions to animals, or they must accept anything that would cause pain to one type of organism must cause pain to another type of organism. Just because we can't recognize that or how plants experience pain, does not mean that they don't.

    As a final note, I think it is the height of academic elitism to suggest one is trolling simply because one seriously considers arguments and attempts to draw conclusions from them. This is no mere "trolling and joking"; rather it is a serious question regarding a serious proposition.

  5. The Grand "Sez Who"
  6. greenrd's article is a superb example of moral argumentation. He claims a certain type of action (the eating of animals and animal by-products) is wrong. His argument is roughly:

    1. Animal cruelty is wrong
    2. Eating animals and animal by-products perpetuates a system of animal cruelty
    3. Therefore, one should not eat animals and animal by-products

    However, as offensive as this comment may be, I can find no justification for the major premise1. I think the implicit assumption might be stated thusly:

    1. Causing pain is wrong
    2. Being cruel to animals causes pain
    3. Therefore animal cruelty is wrong

    First, I am not willing to accept the minor premise until the question of the double bind is sufficiently answered.

    Second, there is still no justification for the major premise2. Why ought I not cause pain? I truly mean this: it's a question which with I've been wrestling for quite some time. Intuitively it seems bad to cause pain. However, my intuition has been wrong in the past. Is there any argument for why causing pain is wrong in the strong sense: someone who causes pain is morally culpable.

[1] Please note: I am not saying it is wrong, I'm merely stating that there is an implicit assumption which must be brought to light, and must be justified if the moral argument is to carry any weight.
[2] Again, please hear what I'm not saying: I'm not saying that the premise is wrong; I'm merely suggesting there is no argumentative justification for the premise.

I'm a vegan myself (3.42 / 7) (#62)
by C0vardeAn0nim0 on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 06:41:44 PM EST

I only eat vegan animals ;-)

http://www.comofazer.net
Religion (4.42 / 7) (#63)
by mideast on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 06:44:47 PM EST

I reject you assertion that, "Ethical veganism is not like a mindless observance of a religious ritual." Vegans may not have a holy book that tells them what they can and cannot eat, but they have a holy rule that they use to determine what they will and will not eat. These two things are equivalent.

This ethical veganism that you speak of is fundamentally a religion. You even provide hinting of this in your article. A conventionally religious person may be confronted with a choice between their God and some desirable thing that is prohibited by their religion. You made a similar choice when you wrote, "I weighed up in my head the convenience and pleasure of cream cheese, cakes, milk chocolate and things like that, with in my view the moral gravity of supporting the dairy and battery farm industries - and I decided there was absolutely no comparison." You chose your God instead of worldly pleasure.

I can see why you may not think that your ethical veganism is a religion. It doesn't seem to be fleshed out to the point of more conventional religions like Christianity or Islam; but you seem to be moving in that direction. I can see this in your belief that widespread veganism will lead to a better world, and that you ignore any possible downsides, like the inevitable increase in diseases (and therefore human suffering) caused by people taking up diets that they did not evolve to eat. This is similar to be belief that many Muslims and Christians have that there would be no downside if the entire world converted to their respective religions.

Evolutionary argument (2.41 / 12) (#64)
by medham on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 06:47:12 PM EST

Is air-tight. Our species evolved as an omnivore. Our bodies are designed to eat animal protein, need it in fact. Most people would rather torture an animal to death than give themselves vitamin shots, so I doubt that the mostly humane circumstances of meat processing today are going to bother anyone.

Even if you are queasy about meat-production, no one can argue that fishing is cruel. Sure, it's overdone; and it's wreaking ecological devestation, but that's a separate issue from the cruelty factor. As Descartes said, fish are automata. When I gaff a big marlin, I feel no more emotion than when I open my computer case. Probably, that's because I'm a good gaffer of marlin. I know what it takes to catch fish out on the ocean. This is something that only real men would understand.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.

A comment (4.66 / 3) (#66)
by spacejack on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 06:50:21 PM EST

I think I first heard about veganism back in high school, in the 80s. I don't know if it's more or less popular than it was back then. I know a number of people who have tried it over the years, but I can't think of a single person who's stuck with it.

I know people who've stuck steadfastly to their politics, and even a few who've remained vegetarian, but not a single vegan. Seems like a pretty hard thing to do... most people wind up focusing on developing their careers and families, letting things like veganism slide. Or maybe they just can't handle their coffee without cream. I dunno, it just seems like one of those movements I would vote "least likely to succeed".

Mmm (4.66 / 9) (#71)
by fluffy grue on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 07:01:27 PM EST

I seem to recall that from a previous conversation, the primary reason you're a vegan is because you don't want the animals to suffer. So, why not have some suffer-free beef? We can wash it down with an Aborted Fœtus McFlurry, too (since foetuses don't feel pain either).
--
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Feh (3.90 / 11) (#80)
by trhurler on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 08:57:26 PM EST

I know several vegans. Granted, they think they're healthier than ever. The rest of us find them rather pathetic. The fact is, unless you're willing to regularly eat significant quantities of truly weird, rare, and frequently rather expensive foods and/or to consume significant quantities of dietary supplements(not all of which are likely made in strict accordance with your religion, er, ah, diet, er, yeah...) you are going to suffer from malnutrition on a vegan diet.

Besides, meat, cheese, and potatoes, with occasional bread added on, and a few vegetables here and there for health reasons - those are the things that matter in food.

Besides, I support animal cruelty. Animals are cruel, and we are animals. Those who think that knowing better is the reason we don't kill each other are mistaken; we don't kill each other because it is to our advantage not to do so, and if it was to our advantage, then we would do it, whether you like it or not(and when it is to our advantage, or when we falsely perceive it to be so, we do in fact kill each other.) It is to our advantage to eat animals. Get over it.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

My perspective (4.80 / 5) (#82)
by calimehtar on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 09:06:30 PM EST

I myself have traversed the spectrum from vegetarian to omnivore to strict vegan (with a few quirks) and back to vegetarian. While I was leaning toward the vegan side of the spectrum, my motivation was to avoid having to kill for food -- the thought that I would kill two or three organisms a day for the rest of my life to sustain myself suddenly struck me as horrible and I resolved to do something about it.

I began to realize two things:

one it is possible to eat plant and even animal products without killing. All "fruit" in the scientific sense of the word, from squash to kiwi, can be eaten without causing any harm to the plant which produced it. In fact most fruit evolved specifically to tempt animals into eating the fruit and spreading the plant's seeds through their excreta. All dairy products can similarly be aquired (though they often aren't) without causing any harm to the animals which provide them.

Two, it's not possible to live even one day without killing something. And furthermore, if you want to politicize food there many additional interesting and sometimes conflicting causes to take into consideration.

For example:

Which is better from a moral perspective: a fish belonging to a species that isn't endangered, harvested by the timeless, brutal method of dragging it out of the sea and effectively drowning it; or a cow from a factory farm killed in a such a way that it probably dies before it even realizes what is happening? I bet most people would agree that eating the fish is morally preferable, since the fish in question had a chance to escape, and very likely lived a full and happy life free in the ocean.

Another example. Which is preferable: drinking coffee from a huge monoculture farm, coffee drenched in persticides and harvested by people getting paid starvation wages; or drinking milk produced on a local, family-run, organic farm? Again, I suspect most people, even a few vegans, would be tempted to choose the latter.

For myself, the complexity of the problem finally became too great. I still avoid meat and dairy products, especially if I'm reasonably certain they are from factory farms. I have a strong preference for organically grown foods and locally-run grocery stores. But in general I eat what strikes me as good.



Two Points. (4.33 / 3) (#85)
by ti dave on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 09:22:31 PM EST

First of all, I find Vegans' objection to the use of honey to be, well.. Retarded.
Where is the cruelty in a man-made hive?

It resembles the structure of the real thing so closely that the bees continue on with their activities.
Bees naturally produce more honey than they require, and I don't know of any beekeepers who would intentionally destroy the domesticated bees' environment.
Beekeepers are pretty ethical stewards of their charges.

Secondly, have you any evidence to back up your assertion that conversion for ethical reasons outnumbers conversion for health reasons?
That doesn't sound reasonable to me.

"If you dial," Iran said, eyes open and watching, "for greater venom, then I'll dial the same."

If I kill a cow myself is it ethical to eat it? (4.50 / 4) (#86)
by Sheepdot on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 09:30:25 PM EST

I had someone challenge me to go to a slaughterhouse.

I did it. It was great. I personally oversaw the deaths of three fine steers. It was quick and painless, but I've seen a couple others that weren't that way.

None of it offends me. If it did, I would probably quit eating meat. So, my question to vegans and basically anyone that is against such a slaughter because THEY DON'T LIKE IT: Is it really unethical if I feel the slaughter is justified by giving me meat?

I would highly suggest that those of you who even show the slightest hint of wanting to quit eating meat go to these plants and see the slaughter. You'll either stomach it and enjoy your food much better than you used to, or you'll get upset and go vegetarian or vegan.

What this article did for me, a vegetarian. (4.00 / 4) (#88)
by evilpenguin on Sun Jul 07, 2002 at 09:53:25 PM EST

Four years ago, I was approximatly 230 LBS, which is 80 lbs more than someone my height should weigh. However, I decided to do something about it, and now I weigh 155 LBS, have gained a lot of muscle, and am generally in the best shape I've ever been. In addition to diet and exercise, one of the things that I believe helped was becoming a vegetarian (note I said "vegetarian", not zeal^H^H^H^Hvegan).

Now, after the first few months I lost the craving for anything like hamburgers and such. After four years, I can say that I never want to touch beef/chicken/pork/lamb again (though I never cared for the latter two anyhow). However, I really want a tuna sandwich right now. Maybe it's just because in browsing the comments I saw fish mentioned, and I haven't eaten dinner yet tonight, but regardless -- I'm going grocery shopping tommorow, and I think I shall pick up a can or two of tuna. I still plan on getting my normal shopping list of veggies, beans, lentils, etc.; I just really want that sandwich.

Am I going to feel bad for the little (well, big) fishie(s)? No. But after I saw this story in the queue, I pondered the reasons for my vegetarian-ness. Health? I think going back to eating fish (though no other meat) will actually improve my health -- I just barely get my 80 g. of protien a day now via dairy and vegetables. Pity? Well, I deplore the conditions of slaughterhouses, but to be the base creature I am: I just don't give a damn. I will never eat "meat" (i.e., everything but a few kinds of fish) again simply because I don't like it. Don't like the taste, the texture, the process, etc. Never have, never will. I guess it's genetic or something.

Will that tuna sandwich, and those to follow, make me feel good about myself? I'm already content. Will it give me more energy? Naw, I'm quite chipper as is. But I'm sure it will taste better than any of those "meatless-meat" sandwiches I've been having all this time.

Let me finish off this disconnected rant by stating: Way back when I was considering going all the way vegan, I decided to try out some of the things that would replace dairy products. Soy "milk" is the most vile shit to ever be labeled "edible", bar none. Even the "chocolate soy milk" has it's own unique wretch. Soy "cheese" tastes like plastic and has the texture to prove it. Bleh.
--
# nohup cat /dev/dsp > /dev/hda & killall -9 getty