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dragonstaff
Too old to Rock and Roll...too young to die   SSHOLE |
Posts: 765 Registered: 8/19/2004 Offline
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9/30/2004 at 00:21 |
If you have been following the comments iin the "Mike Turner" link from a couple of days ago you will know what I think about this . It does nothing to safeguard your country but just makes sure that my personal infomation is stored in the FBI database along with every other (?) criminal in the USA .
I say it doesn't make you safer because identity theft occurs before passports are issued and terrorists have access to top quality forgeries anyway. I don't think ANYONE is dumb enough to use their own , legitimate, passport to enter ANY country for purposes of war.
What say you?
[Edited on 30/9/2004 by dragonstaff]
[Edited on 30/9/2004 by dragonstaff]
[Edited on 30/9/2004 by dragonstaff]
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The Grumpiest Alpha
To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today. - Isaac Asimov
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azron123
I can break you with my mind. Watch, I'll do it.  SSHOLEPosts: 1505 Registered: 3/6/2003 Offline
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9/30/2004 at 01:12 |
Many years ago I read several books about how the Nazis gained power in Germany.
From what I recall the parallels are too frightening to ignore.
I think I'd better find those books and read them again.
We have interlocking government/corporations/media, We've had our rigged election and our Riechstag Fire. We have our enemy of the state, our big lies, our war.
Can our Crystal Nacht and detention/re-education camps be far behind?
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If you give a man a fire you keep him warm for one night.
If you set him on fire you keep him warm for the rest of his life. |
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LuckyLuciano
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 364 Registered: 9/7/2003 Offline
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9/30/2004 at 01:55 |
There are definitely a few similarities between Nazi Germany and the current state of the US.
The rigged election thing is quite similar, though I think it took Hitler 3 or 4 tries to finally get elected into power.
Of course, all my knowledge about nazi germany is from 2 history classes, a few movies, and a whole load of video games. But that doesnt mean its wrong.
I'm looking forward to seeing who is going to be the new(?) president. And what happens after that. Maybe its time to flee and live in another country. Kinda like Hannibal Lecter in Hannibal, and how he lived and taught in Italy. That seemed nice.
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dragonstaff
Too old to Rock and Roll...too young to die SSHOLEPosts: 765 Registered: 8/19/2004 Offline
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9/30/2004 at 02:14 |
It doesnt matter how many tries, it is the end result that counts!
What we are seeing here is the rich, powerful, backroom boys using any means available to keep the masses under control. They say, and may even believe, that it is for our own good but I would prefer to decide what is good for me myself.
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The Grumpiest Alpha
To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today. - Isaac Asimov |
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JESUS_IS_LORD
Tender vittles  Posts: 43 Registered: 9/22/2004 Offline
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9/30/2004 at 02:30 |
Mr. Staff
I for one, shall welcome our new, brownshirted, jackbooted overlords.
In fact, you might say I'm 'on the team. All we have to do is pump up the drug supply, keep the 20-nothings and the liberal hippies stoned, and revolution goes out the widow. They will never be strong. The college kids are so interested in beer and video games, that they won't notice the cremetoriums on the edge of campus.
Yes sir, good times are ahead for me, and friends like this
and this
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putting the ISTI back in CHRISTIAN |
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azron123
I can break you with my mind. Watch, I'll do it. SSHOLEPosts: 1505 Registered: 3/6/2003 Offline
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9/30/2004 at 04:40 |
NOC Jesus. Really.
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If you give a man a fire you keep him warm for one night.
If you set him on fire you keep him warm for the rest of his life. |
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vasudeva
Bad Taste in your Mouth  SSHOLEPosts: 4529 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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9/30/2004 at 12:44 |
azron123: Many years ago I read several books about how the Nazis gained power in Germany.
From what I recall the parallels are too frightening to ignore.
I think I'd better find those books and read them again.
We have interlocking government/corporations/media, We've had our rigged election and our Riechstag Fire. We have our enemy of the state, our big lies, our war.
Can our Crystal Nacht and detention/re-education camps be far behind? Except this time, the Jews own the media, and they're probably too wily to get tricked into that whole "shower" thing a second time.
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slippedhole> I am on to you and your evil intentions. I am the true protector of this website and am willing to do battle with you. |
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ghostrider
liberal exit  SSHOLEPosts: 2502 Registered: 7/29/2004 Offline
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9/30/2004 at 13:42 |
vasudeva: azron123: Many years ago I read several books about how the Nazis gained power in Germany.
From what I recall the parallels are too frightening to ignore.
I think I'd better find those books and read them again.
We have interlocking government/corporations/media, We've had our rigged election and our Riechstag Fire. We have our enemy of the state, our big lies, our war.
Can our Crystal Nacht and detention/re-education camps be far behind? Except this time, the Jews own the media, and they're probably too wily to get tricked into that whole "shower" thing a second time.
right-o 
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LSD? Heck no, those were Opal Thompson's dinner rolls. |
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dragonstaff
Too old to Rock and Roll...too young to die SSHOLEPosts: 765 Registered: 8/19/2004 Offline
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9/30/2004 at 14:18 |
It is not necessarily an ethnic minority that will cop it, but a right wing system that imposes severe restrictions on civil rights for everyone who is not a part of the ruling clique, is quite possible. This could happen in America as easily as anywhere else if the political climate is right , or can be made right. America, as seen from the outside, seems to be moving in that direction at this point in time and the GWB-led government appears to be encouraging this. Of course, we cannot blame poor dumb Dubya for it , but his masters are manouvering things ( and him ) quite well.
The present situation in Iraq, that has been manufactured by the American government, lends itself beautifully to exploitation in this way. No doubt it was meant to.
[Edited on 30/9/2004 by dragonstaff]
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The Grumpiest Alpha
To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today. - Isaac Asimov |
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard  SSHOLEPosts: 1665 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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9/30/2004 at 15:10 |
Except this time, the Jews own the media, and they're probably too wily to get tricked into that whole "shower" thing a second time.
besides, everybody knows that jews have taken to the habit of bathing in bathtubs full of gold coins.
VIVA SCROOGE MCDUCK! |
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BloodyBowels
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 265 Registered: 3/29/2003 Offline
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9/30/2004 at 17:40 |
JESUS_IS_LORD: Mr. Staff
I for one, shall welcome our new, brownshirted, jackbooted overlords.
This sure sounds familiar.
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The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it. . . . Knife and pain are two words in surgery that must forever be associated in the consciousness of the patient.- Dr. Alfred Velpeau (1839) |
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azron123
I can break you with my mind. Watch, I'll do it. SSHOLEPosts: 1505 Registered: 3/6/2003 Offline
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10/1/2004 at 13:31 |
BloodyBowels: JESUS_IS_LORD: Mr. Staff
I for one, shall welcome our new, brownshirted, jackbooted overlords.
This sure sounds familiar.
Sure does. Poor Jesus never seems to have anything to contribute to a discussion so he contents himself with being an asshat fucktard crapcock
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If you give a man a fire you keep him warm for one night.
If you set him on fire you keep him warm for the rest of his life. |
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ragoo
We are not amused.  SSHOLEPosts: 677 Registered: 9/4/2004 Offline
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10/1/2004 at 13:35 |
azron123: asshat fucktard crapcock
Werd, werd and werd.
[Edited on 1/10/2004 by Ragoo]
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JESUS_IS_LORD
Tender vittles Posts: 43 Registered: 9/22/2004 Offline
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10/1/2004 at 13:42 |
azron123: BloodyBowels: JESUS_IS_LORD: Mr. Staff
I for one, shall welcome our new, brownshirted, jackbooted overlords.
This sure sounds familiar.
Sure does. Poor Jesus never seems to have anything to contribute to a discussion so he contents himself with being an asshat fucktard crapcock
Very nice, Mr. 123
Perhaps you should use that HUGE IQ of yours to read my comments again. My viewpoints are the views of a ever increasing segment of Americans. If you can't figure out where I'm coming from, than you, Sir, are the ASSHAT FUCKTARD CRAPCOCK, not to mention a SHITHEEL.
HAND-YHBT
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putting the ISTI back in CHRISTIAN |
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BloodyBowels
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 265 Registered: 3/29/2003 Offline
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10/1/2004 at 13:46 |
JESUS_IS_LORD: azron123: BloodyBowels: JESUS_IS_LORD: Mr. Staff
I for one, shall welcome our new, brownshirted, jackbooted overlords.
This sure sounds familiar.
Sure does. Poor Jesus never seems to have anything to contribute to a discussion so he contents himself with being an asshat fucktard crapcock
Very nice, Mr. 123
Perhaps you should use that HUGE IQ of yours to read my comments again. My viewpoints are the views of a ever increasing segment of Americans. If you can't figure out where I'm coming from, than you, Sir, are the ASSHAT FUCKTARD CRAPCOCK, not to mention a SHITHEEL.
HAND-YHBT
I mean it sounds familiar like some other LS user I know.
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The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it. . . . Knife and pain are two words in surgery that must forever be associated in the consciousness of the patient.- Dr. Alfred Velpeau (1839) |
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dragonstaff
Too old to Rock and Roll...too young to die SSHOLEPosts: 765 Registered: 8/19/2004 Offline
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10/1/2004 at 14:08 |
In the hope that he gets bored and goes away, I am no longer responding to any comment from Jesus. He usually talks out of his arse anyway.
His attitude on this is no surprise though
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The Grumpiest Alpha
To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today. - Isaac Asimov |
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johncleland
Tender vittles  Posts: 8 Registered: 9/17/2004 Offline
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10/1/2004 at 23:45 |
Why are australians so bothered about US fascism though? And In any event the Australians let their government disarm them, so they are the last people who should complain about civil liberty. |
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dragonstaff
Too old to Rock and Roll...too young to die SSHOLEPosts: 765 Registered: 8/19/2004 Offline
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10/2/2004 at 00:30 |
John , Firstly Australia is spelt with a capital letter at the front, as is america.
Second, we were never armed in any case. Unlike the US , we do not have a constitutional Bill of Rights or equivalent. The only Rights an Aussie has are the right to live,to die,and to do what his Govt tells him. We also have any other right enshrined in , wait for it, the MAGNA CARTA! It is this lack of rights that makes me so concerned about their erosion in the country that is the poster boy for civil liberties etc.
Third, I am worried about US fascism because it is a historical fact that we follow you politically. Conservative America= conservative Aust; America goes to war in a small Asian or Middle Eastern country= Aust. at war in the same place. I am worried because I can hear the jackboots marching down my street also.
My only hope is our forthcomming election and the indicators that the current climate is changing for what I consider the better, ie out with the conservatives and in with the left.
[Edited on 2/10/2004 by dragonstaff]
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The Grumpiest Alpha
To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today. - Isaac Asimov |
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JESUS_IS_LORD
Tender vittles Posts: 43 Registered: 9/22/2004 Offline
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10/2/2004 at 00:36 |
The Wallaby, she's a dangerous breed, sport.
Just ask Matilda
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putting the ISTI back in CHRISTIAN |
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LuckyLuciano
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 364 Registered: 9/7/2003 Offline
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10/2/2004 at 01:35 |
A dingo ate your baby.
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johncleland
Tender vittles Posts: 8 Registered: 9/17/2004 Offline
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10/2/2004 at 04:10  |
It was my understanding that, at one point, Australians were able to purchase and posses firearms. This is now no longer the case. Simply because it was not an entrenched right, as per the constitution of the US, does not mean it was not a right per se, but rather one that did not have any special protection in the legislative scheme. In this, it was analagous to the traditional Englishman's right to silence to before trial - which, incidently, the UK government recently abolished. So, just because it was a right that had no special protection under a constitution does not mean it was not a right that was surendered.
Secondly, the closest the US ever came to fascism was during the pre-war Roosevelt period. During that time FDR attempted to roll back many traditional american freedoms - and in many cases suceeded. In fact at one point FDR, frustrated that his schemes were being hindered by the judicial branch, attempted to neutralise and subvert the Supreme Court's traditional independence from the executive branch becuase they had ruled so much of his legislation unconstiutional. The court however, fearing his Justice packing scheme, capitulated and reversed itself in the West Coast Hotel decision (The so - called "switch in time which saved nine." ) but by this point the impending crises in europe and domestic election results had cooled FDRs jets somewhat. Neverthless FDR clearly was not a big fan on individual rights, and did everything he could to introduce a pervasive authoritarian government, including jailing poor farmers for growing their own food. Additionally FDRs whitehouse and its Democratic machine also produced much more that just marketplace aimed legislation that was facially unconsitutional. And this was never reviewed by the courts. As such it was during this period that the US government restricted many of the rights that many thinkers, e.g. Lawrence Tribe of Harvard law school or Nobel Laurite Milton Freedman consider necessary pre-conditions for deliberative democracy. (As opposed to the technical democracy offered by authoritarian states.) Desipte this the country recovered and did not become a facist dictatorship. Nor did people outside the US bitch a moan about FDR the fascist - he still gets off light today. (In fact in many ways Bush and FDR have a lot of asshat similarties.)
Thirdly, the US congress as always had the complete freedom to regulate immigration in any manner it sees fit. Vetting immigrants is not an indication of rising fascism per se, nor is it an errosion of the rights of US citizens which would be the sine qua non of rising fascism. Immigrants have always faced onerous regulation in the US. Before Bush and before 9/11 lifetime permanent residents were required to carry a special form of id at all times, which they were obliged to provide to any government official or law enforcement officer for any reason at any time or face deportation or criminal charges. They also had to produce it upon obtaining empolyment. Permenant residents also had to register their address with the government and had only seven days to notify the government if it changed. Again failure to do so would result in criminal charges. Yet no-one called Clinton a fascist, even when he supported this Hitleresque scheme.
Frankly I think the reason the that Australians are getting the fingerprint treatment is because Congress is so cowed by the authoritarian ( crypto-fascist -?) left they have to dish this out to all visitors, not just the ones from countries where they need it. In other words, if only Saudi's etc. were subject to this treatment, the left in this country would go a spree of crying racism and generally have a field day calling anyone who suggested that some immigrants needed vetting a Nazi. Sort of ironic really.
I do admit the Patriot act is a piece of dogshit. But parts of it have already been struck down and more will be soon judging by the federal court docket. And there is no doubt in my mind that the current conservative court, in light of rulings like City of Indianapolis and Sawyer v. Texas. will almost certainly strike it down the onerous parts on further appeal (if it even gets renewed). Indeed, the current US supreme court panel has a history of striking down any form of legislation that interferes with traditional autonomous freedoms, often much to the disgust of authoritarian republicans, and in many respects has a better rights record than earlier famous liberal courts, See e.g. the Burger Court. In the US the legislative branch has far more power than pretty much any other English speaking nation and historically, with a few notable exceptions, is generally reactionary to any change in the way of things. See FDR, supra.
Thus, I think your claims of impending Nazism are ill-founded. Reasonable people may disagree about the direction of US foreign and domestic policy, but to suggest that the rise of US Nazism is immenent because the US now fingerprints people that were never protected by the constitution strikes me as no more than rehtorical hyperbole. I admit that it can be rationally argued that the US is heading as a nation in the wrong direction, however that does not in of itself imply that the necessary autonomus freedoms required to insure the maintainance of a viable deliberative democracy are being erroded. The US is no closer to a Nazi state today than it was in 1999 and, in fact, with the failure of gun control radicals to prevent the sunsetting of the assualt weapons ban, some would argue the cllimate is one of increased autonomous freedom. Incidently, probably the worst period for the errosion of traditional individual rights in recent US history was Clinton's first two years with a Democrat congress. The 94 civil rights bill was anything but, and that entire time was one continued attempt to expand intrusive government. (To the point they wanted to outlaw private medical treatment through taxation which even the UK hasn't done - it failed of course).
I'm not Australian, but if I were, I would probably be concerned about two things: One, if I felt my government was being led round by the nose by the US, I would do everything I could to vote them out and replace them with a government that better protected my own interests. Two, I would remember that in the seventies the UK government asserted "Imperial" authority and dissolved my government without my consent. Given that civil rights are almost unheard of today in the UK, I would do everything I could to get the queen off my money and the governer general out of my country as quickly as I could to stop it from happening again.
And for the record I didn't capitalize Australia becuase I think Austrailia is not a proper county (even though its not, becuase its a dominion of the british empire), but because I am lazy.
I'm going to revert to my usual asshat nature now.
[Edited on 2/10/2004 by johncleland] |
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ghostrider
liberal exit SSHOLEPosts: 2502 Registered: 7/29/2004 Offline
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10/2/2004 at 04:30 |
your ref to Milton is an indication of an economics POV. I agree with much of what you say, except the 'traditional' seperation of Supreme Court from the Executive Branch. I believe this was always a design of the framers( for the Judicial to be determined by the Executive)in any case, where is the relevence now. And concerning Dragonstaff, we need not ref him at all(no dis intended,bro) the Magna Carta is based on centuries old ideals(might as well be Hamurabbi's Law) although the basis of modern,American law. is there
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LSD? Heck no, those were Opal Thompson's dinner rolls. |
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johncleland
Tender vittles Posts: 8 Registered: 9/17/2004 Offline
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10/2/2004 at 05:24 |
Your point is well taken that Milton was primarily an economist rider, however, one Milion's theses was that free market, i.e. individual autonomy in commercial relaintionships is a necessary pre-condition for a truly deliberative democracy. Essentially Milton posited, that with complete government control of the comercial sphere a in given society, dissenting individuals would never be able to muster the resources required to promulgate and advocate their personal views unless the government permitted them to. In other words, as the government controlled the supply of paper, the airwaves etc., a dissenting individual - or group of individuals - could never start an effective campaign promoting their own contrary viewpoint. Essentially therefore the government could use regulation of the free market to restrict the freedom political speech and allow only what opposition was convienent. Given that many leftist thinkers of the time believed in the erronious thesis of "destructive competition" and this was the justification of FDR's almost total regulation of the commericial sphere the inherent danger can clearly be seen. For example congressional marketing orders could be issued to insure that only already established newspapers should recieve a supply of paper to print, or even more subtly only profitable newspapers are allowed a supply of paper. This of course would deny the right of those who wish to promote an unpopular viewpoint through a loss making news organization. Its a subtle point and I'm probably not explaining it that well, but it does make a lot of sense when Milton describes it. Neverthless it is relevant today. (Witness Air America).
As to the control of the judicial branch by the executive branch, while it is true that the consitution never explicitly mandated the independence required for judicial review, many of the framers were still living when the Court rendered its opinion in Marburyv. Madison which established that the court could in fact void the actions of either the congress or the executive if it believed them unconstitutional. None of them spoke out decrying this action as against their intent. Further, as a textual matter article III of the constitution grants lifetime appoinments for federal judges and also prohibits the congress form reducing or terminating their salary while in office. This is another clear indication that as a body it was intended to operate independently of the other two branches without co-ercion.
A really interesting question to consider therefore is that, given the above, was Roosevelt's court packing scheme unconstitutional in its attempt to destroy the traditional seperation of powers and could the court have ruled the appointment of new judges impermissble as unconsitiutional interference.
As to the Magna Carta, I agree with you 100%. It delimits the rights of the aristocracy, a body which is constitutionally prohibited here and is therefore of no account. Although we do share a common law tradition and precedent, and indeed will sometimes look to commonwealth courts in when making novel rulings if no US court has opined on similar questions. However I think that was referenced to explicate Australian rights. A better text to refer to though, would be the english bill of rights, circa 1689.
[Edited on 2/10/2004 by johncleland] |
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dragonstaff
Too old to Rock and Roll...too young to die SSHOLEPosts: 765 Registered: 8/19/2004 Offline
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10/2/2004 at 11:50 |
Point 1. We can still buy firearms but the paperwork and regulations involved make it very difficult. We don't have, and have never had, an American style gun culture or the implicit right to carry weapons but these days a fisherman needs to be careful with carrying his knife. In fact, the majority of our cops only started carrying guns in the last 15 to 20 years.
Point 2. I do not actually believe that the USA will become a fascist nation, even if the current leadership remains in power, and it is good to hear that the Supreme Court is overturning some of the more onerous attempts to limit the freedoms inherant in your constitution.
Point 3. I fully intend to do what I can to remove the present crop of Arseholes from power in Canberra and will have my turn in the ballot box next weekend. As for the dismissal of the Whitlam Government in 1975 by the G.G., the next Parliament ( led by the man who instigated the dismissal ) legislated to ensure that it could not happen again.This( the dismissal ) was done by the Queen's representative, not by the British Government( yes, there is a difference , ask a Canadian) in response to a constitutional crisis. The upper house of the parliament failed to pass the budget, effectivley leaving the govt. with no money for the next year. Within three years of this a third party was established, which , while never gaining a seat in the lower house , has held the balance of power in the upper house ever since.
Point 4. Australia is no longer a dominion of the British Empire any more than Canada is. Even the British will admit( some with regret ) that the Empire no longer exists.
Point 5. There have been several conserted efforts to become a "Republic" over the last few years but they have failed because the models proposed by Parliament ( Bipartisan, not just the Govt.) and a "Constitutional Convention" of people in general ( but well known people as a rule ) were all on the Westminster model. ie Retain the status quo but put a crony in the "Head of State" position and call him "President" instead of "Govenor General" If it were to be modelled on your system instead the Republicans may stand a better chance, but most Aussies feel like I do - If the only real change means we pay the bill's for the top dog instead of the British, don't change anything.
And I genuinely appreciate the lessons in American political history that I am getting from you guys!
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The Grumpiest Alpha
To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today. - Isaac Asimov |
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Evildigitz
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 143 Registered: 4/6/2004 Offline
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12/13/2004 at 13:46 |
Point 4. Australia is no longer a dominion of the British Empire any more than Canada is. Even the British will admit( some with regret ) that the Empire no longer exists.
True - us brits lost our empire long ago, dunno if that’s a good or bad thing (our empire was largely benign, and when most countries regained self- rule they usually turned themselves into dictatorship shit-heaps) still that’s a whole other subject. All long before my time though, just wish people from other countries (usually America) would just stop bitching about the empire every time the UK is mentioned. As for having all our rights striped away from us (the English) by a crazy all controlling government – yep – that’s true and I wish more people thought like me – they’d be voted out if they did.
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