Lownotes
They all float down here.   SSHOLE |
Posts: 186 Registered: 4/23/2005 Offline
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7/17/2007 at 15:19 |
What is the best way to govern a group of human beings?
Years ago in my first philosophy class we studied the escape from nature. This is the idea all human societies must first escape the state of animal barbarism forced on us by the harsh natural environment before we can build a good society. To do this, we must rely on our humanity and figure out our principles concerning ethics, metaphysics, human rights and so on.
I thought it might be nifty if we all engaged in the same thought experiment my professor had our class engage in.
I'm going to give you a scenario followed by a few hypothetical problems, and I'd like to see how each of you would solve the problems presented. Feel free to create new problems for our hypothetical islanders for all of us to discuss. Keep it simple.
Ready? OK - here goes
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imagine you are stranded on an island with 30 people.
To live, some must collect fruit, some must build shelter. Luckily, no one is feeble. At the end of the day, there's a big pile of fruit, enough for each person to get five pieces. At first, we all agree everyone who helped in any way gets their 5 pieces.
SOLVE THE FOLLOWING PROBLEMS:
INJURY
One day, someone breaks their leg. So...how do you handle this? Does that person get 5 pieces a day even though they cannot help, or do 5 people each give up one piece. If we choose the latter, who would those 5 people be? The healthiest, the strongest? Should it be by lottery? Who brings them the fruit? Who cares for the leg? Production will go down, so what do we do with the person who is helping? Do they still get 5 pieces of fruit even though they aren't contributing to the harvest or the construction as much? If we decide to say yes, who will give up their rations?
SURPLUS
One day, we bring in enough fruit to give everyone 10 pieces instead of 5. It will spoil if we try and store it. Who gets the extra food? Everyone? The healthiest? The weakest? The injured?
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
One day, someone kills someone else. We could kill them for it, banish them, or put them into some sort of prison. If we choose banishment, they may return in the night and steal food or kill again. If we put them in prison, someone must build it, and at least two people must keep guard in shifts. Prison means we lose a great deal of production. Two people to keep guard and one to be guarded and all three must be fed. How much to give them, and who should give up rations to feed and guard a murderer? Killing them is the most efficient, most logical choice. But what sort of precedent will this set, and who will do the act?
EUTHANASIA
One day, someone falls and hits their head. Somehow, it doesn't kill them, but it does turn them into a vegetable with no hope of returning to normal. Do they still get the same rations as everyone else? Who gives up rations for them? Who cares for them? Is it worth it to feed both the caregiver and the comatosed when the comatosed will never be able to contribute back to the group again? Should we kill the comatosed? Let them starve?
WAGES
One day a big storm causes a lot of damage to the shelters and the shelter builders must work extra hard to rebuild all the damage and work on new construction. They demand they be paid more for their troubles. Should they be? What if they refuse to build anymore unless they are paid? Does this set a precedent that they can hold the group's shelter hostage?
WAGES AND STEALING
Over time, the fruit trees are picked clean and the fruit pickers must venture farther into the jungle, risking themselves and working harder than before. They say they should receive more fruit for their troubles. Should they be? What if they decide to just eat the fruit anyway since they're the ones picking it?
GOVERNANCE
How do you decide all of this? By vote? By a special group of elders or something? With one person ruling the 29 others who is voted into power but can only serve for a specific amount of time? What if everyone disagrees or is divided?
PROSTITUTION
One day, one of the females in our group starts offering sex for rations. The men have no problem with this, and she is able to get her 5 rations a day without contributing to the harvest or to construction. What shall we do?
ECONOMY
One of the constructors is very good and offers to build an extra fancy shelter in return for rations. Several people agree, and soon he is getting 10 rations a day and no longer working on shelter for everyone, just those who pay him. What shall we do?
On 2007-07-17 at 12:52:16, Lownotes craps monkey baby
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Steel
If you want to keep your tongue, don't lick me in the Winter!  SSHOLEPosts: 512 Registered: 10/14/2004 Offline
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7/17/2007 at 16:22 |
I will add my notes here... PS... I someday hope to live on an island, one large enough for 30 others sure would be nice so away we go.
INJURY
So someone breaks their leg? No big deal, hopefully we are able to splint it as well as possible and it will heal as best as it can someday, the person will walk with a cane forever... Reduced production? Not necessarily... A) How long after being on the island did this happen? A year? How long after you get there do you plan to be in full scale production? My suggestion here would be to have the handicapped person take up responsibilities that they can do laying down/ propped up... crappy jobs which are still important... sewing/stirring the pot of whatever so that it doesn't burn/Strip bamboo to make rope/ make coconut flasks...
At some point each person pn the island will not be able to help... injury/ sickness/pregnancy... everyone needs to realize this and pick up the slack... someday it will be their turn to get hurt and relax... and I don't think they will appreciate getting ousted...
SURPLUS
Lots of great things could be done here... Sure #1 way... would be to split evenly the difference... or perhaps we could have some fun and agree to some sort of games... Games of chance would be good so no one feels left out...
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
I guess we are assuming this was no accident/self defense move. Killing is the best option... Not to burden anyone else... I would use them as bait in the middle of the island to attrack more food we can eat...
EUTHANASIA
Hmmm... so not a functional retard (please don't sue) but a nearly comatose vegetable... Realistically they must die... If I were the leader I would allow that persons family or friends to keep them alive if wanted by sharing a portion of their own rations... A comatose person should need less food to survive..
WAGES
Sorry fellas... You don't get shit... Don't forget...While you are repairing my house I still gotta go get food for you to eat... and hey... perhaps everyone helps out during the time of crisis... What?? the non homebuilder guy can't hold a pole? can't get a leaf for the roof?
WAGES AND STEALING
Its an honor system... If those fruit guys go way out into the jungle and eat their fill first...no one will ever know... we could all go as a group... or decide its time to build a new camp in a different locale...
and hey... if we do find out about the stealing... we'll think of some sort of punishment...
GOVERNANCE
I would say a closed ballet voting system would work...and in the case of tie... people would get the chance to plead their case... one more open vote... if all else fails...rock paper scissors..
PROSTITUTION and ECONOMY
I think the rule should be that everyone must work for their fair share...if someone has an idea to get other stuff they can implement their plan, but must complete their normal work first... then may lie on their back, do fancy work for extra food/privileges.
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vasudeva
Bad Taste in your Mouth  SSHOLEPosts: 4540 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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7/17/2007 at 16:58 |
PROSTITUTION
Once day, one of the females in our group starts offering sex for rations. The men have no problem with this, and she is able to get her 5 rations a day without contributing to the harvest or to construction. What shall we do?
ECONOMY
One of the constructors is very good and offers to build an extra fancy shelter in return for rations. Several people agree, and soon he is getting 10 rations a day and no longer working on shelter for everyone, just those who pay him. What shall we do?
So, a service economy has just blossomed. Good. Manual labor is probably boring even on a tropical island, and I can't imagine this commune model scaling up very well due to many of the hypotheticals proposed.
What about self-sufficiency?
Is it the "washed ashore on a deserted island" scenario that presupposes this kind of excessively communal living? Would a "post-nuclear-holocaust uncovering of a dead city" scenario, and its potential for machinery and infrastructure, give rise to something different? Cause I want to be in that one, with a rifle and a dog and an old leather jacket commandeered from a "HEILS AN?LES", whatever that is.
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
I guess we are assuming this was no accident/self defense move. Killing is the best option... Not to burden anyone else... I would use them as bait in the middle of the island to attrack more food we can eat...
In a pinch, I support the idea of exile and/or execution. The one guy who's always being a jerk usually manages to go ingratiate himself with a hostile force and then betray your defense secrets.
Seriously, there's a point at which a member of the community displays a tendency to be grievously harmful to that community. On the Internet, that means ban. When you're roommates, that means moving out and finding a new roommate. When you're fighting nature for survival with few resources, that means exile, or execution. (I'll note that LOki has managed to make me feel real uneasy about "the state being in the business of killing its citizens", as he puts it, and I can't square that with the above.)
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slippedhole> I am on to you and your evil intentions. I am the true protector of this website and am willing to do battle with you. |
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Lownotes
They all float down here. SSHOLEPosts: 186 Registered: 4/23/2005 Offline
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7/17/2007 at 17:49 |
I've always assumed the point of this is to eradicate any wistful fantasies about returning to a commune-style utopia by revealing why we are still struggling with so many of these issues.
The problems and justifications for socialism, communism, fascism, democracy and so on emerge.
Concerning post-apocalyptic conditions, I know this. Post Katrina, we reformed clans. Families gathered with their food and their weapons and sent liaisons back and forth to gather information and barter. We didn't give a shit about the government or the law, and we stayed up at night keeping watch. |
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LOki
Refusenik  SSHOLEPosts: 485 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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7/17/2007 at 18:28 |
INJURY
One day, someone breaks their leg. So...how do you handle this? Does that person get 5 pieces a day even though they cannot help, or do 5 people each give up one piece. If we choose the latter, who would those 5 people be? The healthiest, the strongest? Should it be by lottery? Who brings them the fruit? Who cares for the leg? Production will go down, so what do we do with the person who is helping? Do they still get 5 pieces of fruit even though they aren't contributing to the harvest or the construction as much? If we decide to say yes, who will give up their rations? The injured person gets what share of food that another voluntarily gives them. Any assistance the injured recieves, provided by others, is provided on a voluntary basis.
SURPLUS
One day, we bring in enough fruit to give everyone 10 pieces instead of 5. It will spoil if we try and store it. Who gets the extra food? Everyone? The healthiest? The weakest? The injured? Those who are responsibe for creating the excess decide how their portion of the excess they created is distributed.
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
One day, someone kills someone else. We could kill them for it, banish them, or put them into some sort of prison. If we choose banishment, they may return in the night and steal food or kill again. If we put them in prison, someone must build it, and at least two people must keep guard in shifts. Prison means we lose a great deal of production. Two people to keep guard and one to be guarded and all three must be fed. How much to give them, and who should give up rations to feed and guard a murderer? Killing them is the most efficient, most logical choice. But what sort of precedent will this set, and who will do the act? I will.
EUTHANASIA
One day, someone falls and hits their head. Somehow, it doesn't kill them, but it does turn them into a vegetable with no hope of returning to normal. Do they still get the same rations as everyone else? Who gives up rations for them? Who cares for them? Is it worth it to feed both the caregiver and the comatosed when the comatosed will never be able to contribute back to the group again? Should we kill the comatosed? Let them starve? It is acceptable to let them starve, but not necessary to force the matter if someone wishes to care for the vegetable.
WAGES
One day a big storm causes a lot of damage to the shelters and the shelter builders must work extra hard to rebuild all the damage and work on new construction. They demand they be paid more for their troubles. Should they be? What if they refuse to build anymore unless they are paid? Does this set a precedent that they can hold the group's shelter hostage? Yes.
WAGES AND STEALING
Over time, the fruit trees are picked clean and the fruit pickers must venture farther into the jungle, risking themselves and working harder than before. They say they should receive more fruit for their troubles. Should they be? What if they decide to just eat the fruit anyway since they're the ones picking it? Yes. Fine.
GOVERNANCE
How do you decide all of this? By vote? By a special group of elders or something? With one person ruling the 29 others who is voted into power but can only serve for a specific amount of time? What if everyone disagrees or is divided? Use the Principle of Self Ownership.
PROSTITUTION
Once day, one of the females in our group starts offering sex for rations. The men have no problem with this, and she is able to get her 5 rations a day without contributing to the harvest or to construction. What shall we do? Fuck her for all she's worth.
ECONOMY
One of the constructors is very good and offers to build an extra fancy shelter in return for rations. Several people agree, and soon he is getting 10 rations a day and no longer working on shelter for everyone, just those who pay him. What shall we do? Pay him more to work on the shelter for everyone if that's what you'd rather have him do.
On 2007-07-17 at 13:32:05, LOki craps monkey baby
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JohnLenin
Putting the semen in amusement  SSHOLEPosts: 1103 Registered: 7/8/2005 Offline
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7/17/2007 at 18:33 |
INJURY
Let them starve.
SURPLUS
Surplus will be traded to neighbors for guns.
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
At night when everyone sleeps, a small group of secret police take the criminal far from the village and kill him. Villagers are advised not to ask questions about his absence.
EUTHANASIA
it is up to that person's family to care for them. If they wish they can ask for their dribble-mouthed loved one to be taken to the mystic 'healing tree.' A small group of secret police will then take this person far from the village and kill them. Villagers are advised not to ask questions about their absence.
WAGES
Secret police will advise these workers to rebuild their work with little compensation. half a piece of fruit will be deducted from everyone for two days to pay for this.
WAGES AND STEALING
Their work is for the good of the community as a whole, and they should be happy to do it without extra pay. Armed members of the secret police will keep watch of operations to prevent stealing.
GOVERNANCE
The gods chose me to lead, so alone I lead. Do not question me. Doing so is questioning the gods.
PROSTITUTION
A tax of two pieces of fruit will be taken daily from them. This tax will help pay the wages of the police who will protect them should they be harmed.
ECONOMY
If people can afford to out-buy the shelter builder, then so be it. It should encourage people to learn to build and repair their own shelters.
On 2007-07-17 at 13:37:49, guitarjon123 craps monkey baby
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[Clavis_A] he's one of the few people i've ever seen that bear a striking resemblence to their own dick |
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SexNinja
the illest nigga  SSHOLEPosts: 1537 Registered: 10/28/2007 Offline
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7/17/2007 at 18:37 |
I would immediately kill everyone except the future prostitute (sluts are useful).
Seriously.
Why allow anyone else to live and take my food, water, shelter, etc? Why cannot I "build" a perfect society based around the entirety of myself? |
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dent
Slipping it into the wrong hole any chance I get  SSHOLEPosts: 884 Registered: 10/20/2004 Offline
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7/17/2007 at 19:04 |
INJURY
Children don't work, but as parents, we still have to feed them.
SURPLUS
If we're talking about extra fruit, then rather than blowing through it in a day - prepare it to be dried in the sun. Now the fruit will last much longer.
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
Assuming it was murder - death would be the only option. We could wait until low tide, and bury him neck deep in the sand. When the tide shifts, he would drown. No mess. Leaving the body in the sand would attract a ton of crustaceans for food. Although, this would seriously fuck up our occupational groupings (below).
EUTHANASIA
If there's a ration of food for everyone, then someone falling ill isn't "taking" someone's rations, it was his/hers to begin with. I mean, we all have jobs to begin with, and I hope they consist of developing our crops and enhancing our shelters. If so, everyone has earned their ration, whether they fall ill or not. If they cannot eat because of a coma, then their food should be stored (sea salts or sun dried).
If someone is near-death, I think the person should be allowed to die naturally. How does anyone on the island know if this person could come out of a coma or not? We're not doctors; we're fishermen, contractors, hunters, farmers and R&D.
WAGES
We have divided groups:
6 Fishermen (catch fish, develop improved implements, and source bait)
6 Contractors (build shelter, innovate technology in the field to make life not suck)
6 Hunters (hunt and capture meat, innovate hunting tools)
6 Farmers (develop crops, grow and maintain crops, breed animals caught by hunters)
6 Explorers, Researchers (develop new strategies in medicine, develop ways to trap and filter water, develop and invent shit, explore island for shit, develop maps and trails)
Each group can use a majority rule to figure out their own schedule. At the end of a workweek, each group will earn 12 credits to be split up 2 per individual. We could set-up a market:
20 Handmade dried seaweed cigarettes - 2 credits
Lobster - 1 credit
crab - 1 credit
Red meat, per pound - 2 credits
1lb of veggies - 1 credit
Gallon of fresh water - 1 credit
Shelter upgrades - 2 credits
Aloe, medicines - 1 credit
This would all be above and beyond our daily rations.
WAGES AND STEALING
Stealing should be dealt with by the removal of credits, but still need to show up for work.
GOVERNANCE
Majority rule - there's no other way. If Nocal got all drunk off of the wine that was made by one of the researchers and accidently burned down half of my coconut garage because he dropped a seaweed cigarette, we all should vote on how he should be dealt with. Do we stone him? Do we rape him? Yes.
PROSTITUTION
C'mon, we can fudge the groups around to make this happen.
ECONOMY
The credit system will not allow for more than 12 credits per group a week. You can privately trade belongings amongst individuals of different groups but not credit. If I used my 2 credits to buy fresh water, but I know Kahuna is out and I have surplus, I can trade him some water for some Aloe. Or, if he works as a hunter, I can trade him water for meat that he catches AFTER his shift is over, on his own time.
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"You must have weak asslips. I like to sculpt mine on the way out, like table legs under a lathe" - Vasudeva |
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dinozoa
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 319 Registered: 7/18/2004 Offline
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7/17/2007 at 22:06 |
Isn't this obviously much less of a mind experiment than a 'let me show how I think about things' xanga type survey? You might as well ask people, "are you a slow, focused thinker, who likes to get things done right, or a firey, impatient, creative type?" You're setting up a false, over-simplistic scenario that isn't a useful metaphor in the sense the style of thinking people display in solving these problems is far from the thinking they display when they govern the actions of their social lives IRL.
Oh well. I guess the interesting part is why would you even ask this question? Why is it interesting to pretend that humans are such selfish robots that even small groups need a government or they'll disentegrate?
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I disagree. |
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vasudeva
Bad Taste in your Mouth SSHOLEPosts: 4540 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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7/17/2007 at 22:28 |
Dude, here comes the fun police, pull ova, weee-oooo, weeee-oooo.
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slippedhole> I am on to you and your evil intentions. I am the true protector of this website and am willing to do battle with you. |
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LORDKAHUNA
Don't make me fuk your moustache  SSHOLEPosts: 1669 Registered: 8/5/2003 Offline
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7/17/2007 at 23:06 |
How to escape the state of animal barbarism?
IRON RULE!
One ruler (me lol) divides the clan into the powerful/privileged HAVES and the sustenance seeking HAVE NOTS. HAVE membership is determined by the whim of the ruler.
There will be 5 classes:
1) The supreme ruler.
2) Those who rule under the supreme ruler.
3) Those who enforce the will of the rulers.
4) Those who fuck.
5) Those who work.
This establishes that betterment exists, and that one can aspire to be one of the privileged elite if only they work hard and please the ruler. What ultimately pleases the ruler is the further solidification of the ruler's power and the expansion of the empire.
INJURY
Sub-rulers will determine the worth of the worker, if the worker is valuable he will be beaten in the square for damaging the ruler's property (leg) while the other workers are forced to watch. If the worker is not valuable he will be ripped to pieces by the workers for damaging the ruler's property (leg). This will be an excellent incentive to take care of MY legs. A special reward of an extra food unit will go to the worker that presents the ruler with the biggest piece, this piece will be rendered into a generic food unit to be awarded to the next worker to present a big piece. Besides the "Piece Prize" all workers will receive equally portioned food units.
SURPLUS
All surplus belongs to the ruler, those who bring surplus are rewarded by the ruler. A rulers reward is fuckable females, any surplus generated by the rewarding belongs to the ruler and is added to the worker pool.
CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
The ruler kills whomever he wishes, the sub rulers may kill as long as it does not harm the empire or displeases me, workers kill nobody, lest they be flayed alive, sewn into a bag of salt, shat upon and stoned to death.
EUTHANASIA
Vegetables may be eaten.
WAGES
Worker demands are paid in death.
WAGES AND STEALING
Stealing carries the sentence of stoning until one reaches a vegetative state (see EUTHANASIA).
GOVERNANCE
LOL
PROSTITUTION
Fuckables (women) are stored in the harem, the young and very old raise the children until they can become workers and are exempt from fucking. A reward is a fuck credit which anyone can earn and are dispensed by the ruler and sub-rulers. Fuckables (of breeding age) are required to reproduce every 2 years to maintain usefulness.
ECONOMY
If one can demonstrate that one can better the empire or the quality of the ruler or sub-ruler's lives he will recieve a generous reward of fuck credits. Remember, pleasing the ruler is the only thing of worth here.
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the rice I had yesterday came out practically verbatim |
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vasudeva
Bad Taste in your Mouth SSHOLEPosts: 4540 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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7/18/2007 at 01:05 |
LORDKAHUNA:
PROSTITUTION
Fuckables (women) are stored in the harem, the young and very old raise the children until they can become workers and are exempt from fucking.
Your phrasing leaves open the following interpretation...
the young and very old raise the children until they
1) can become workers and
2) are [thus] exempt from fucking.
Squee.
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slippedhole> I am on to you and your evil intentions. I am the true protector of this website and am willing to do battle with you. |
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LORDKAHUNA
Don't make me fuk your moustache SSHOLEPosts: 1669 Registered: 8/5/2003 Offline
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7/18/2007 at 01:17 |
vasudeva: LORDKAHUNA:
PROSTITUTION
Fuckables (women) are stored in the harem, the young and very old raise the children until they can become workers and are exempt from fucking.
Your phrasing leaves open the following interpretation...
the young and very old raise the children until they
1) can become workers and
2) are [thus] exempt from fucking.
Squee.
The pre-breeding young fuckable and the very old fuckables are exempt from fucking. As soon as the female child is old enough, it helps old fuckables raise other children. Manchilds go to the fields.
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the rice I had yesterday came out practically verbatim |
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Lownotes
They all float down here. SSHOLEPosts: 186 Registered: 4/23/2005 Offline
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7/18/2007 at 15:30 |
Dinozoa:
Maybe I'm naive, but I consider this a philosophical tool for revealing why how we end up with governments as we go from gatherer to agriculture to civilization and so on. The argument: people can't function in groups without coming up with a system for solving certain ethical questions. Peace, love and understanding doesn't always work. The iron fist of a dictator sometimes sometimes does.
I'm sure everyone here is a beautiful and unique snowflake, but that's not the point. I certainly don't think this kind of discussion will reveal the inner machinery of how anyone here survives socially.
It' s over simplistic for the sake of reduction and fun. You know, like elevators in space and cats in boxes. |
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LOki
Refusenik SSHOLEPosts: 485 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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7/18/2007 at 19:16 |
vasudeva: LORDKAHUNA:
PROSTITUTION
Fuckables (women) are stored in the harem, the young and very old raise the children until they can become workers and are exempt from fucking.
Your phrasing leaves open the following interpretation...
the young and very old raise the children until they
1) can become workers and
2) are [thus] exempt from fucking.
Squee.
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vasudeva
Bad Taste in your Mouth SSHOLEPosts: 4540 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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7/18/2007 at 19:23 |
Evidently jokes about standardized children-fucking require multiple straight-men. Tits or GTFO u loserz.
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slippedhole> I am on to you and your evil intentions. I am the true protector of this website and am willing to do battle with you. |
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LOki
Refusenik SSHOLEPosts: 485 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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7/20/2007 at 14:38 |
vasudeva: Evidently jokes about standardized children-fucking require multiple straight-men. Tits or GTFO u loserz. I THINK YOU KILLED THIS.
I approve.
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard  SSHOLEPosts: 1671 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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7/20/2007 at 15:10 |
How to escape the state of animal barbarism?
UNPOSSIBLE
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Amero and New World Order: the libertarian version of the rapture. |
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