nocal: so uart and loki, you are already paying more than any other country in the world is paying for other people's healthcare. you slaves. if we adopted universal healthcare we would actually pay less and receive superior care (if we assume that life expectancy correlates positively to quality of healthcare).

additionally, 50% of bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. well yes, you say, they didn't have insurance. 75% of those bankruptcies were people who had coverage. 68% had coverage when they filed for bankruptcy. 33% lost coverage during their illness.

Ah. Enslaving healthcare workers to your degree of comfort makes it all righteous then. How nice.

mundhra:
nobody's forcing anyone to be healthcare workers.

Wotak: LUNATICS ANONYMOUS

Ah. Enslaving healthcare workers to your degree of comfort makes it all righteous then. How nice.

Cry me a fucking river.

nocal:

see, you were saying that you don't want to be a slave to anyone by paying for their healthcare, and i just proved that you, and the rest of us in america, pay more than any other nation in the world for other people's healthcare. we pay more than countries with nationalized healthcare.

but NOW you're concerned about healthcare workers. interesting how you don't give a shit about other people until it's convenient to your argument.

nocal:

see what i mean?

nocal: point being, our current system is expensive, inferior, and screws policy holders out of their coverage when they actually need to use it.

Nonsense, This has nothing to do with the "convenience" of argument. I want to nether be a slave or slave master.

Go fuck yourself.

No.

Your solution: MOAR OF IT! With more authoritarian Jack-boots to keep the providers in line.

nocal: what does socialized healthcare have to do with enslaving anyone?

nocal: are you saying that paying for a good or service is enslavement?

nocal: doctors in other countries who operate under the auspices of socialized medicine, can, if you let me paraphrase your argument, "get another fucking job."

nocal: of course not. you think that problems with rate fluctuations only effect "stupid" people,...

nocal:... that if a state adopted an official religion people ought to "just move."

nocal: but you suddenly seemed awfully concerned for the salaries of doctors. do you only care about rich people, or what?

nocal:

i never said more. a unified system would have a bigger risk pool, and it wouldn't be for profit, meaning we wouldn't just deny people care once they actually got sick.

nocal: if the for profit system actually worked, we would pay the most for the best care, right? how come that isn't true?

nocal: emergency rooms can't turn people away anyway, and then they can't pay the bill if they're not insured (one night in the ER can be around $10k if nothing is actually wrong with you) and then we end up paying for that person through inflated costs. those people are poor, so should we turn them away?

Socialized healthcare is the government putting a gun in, a) a patients face telling him wether or not he can have a treatment;

and/or b) putting a gun in a doctros face telling her that she cannot charge what she wants for her work;

and/or c) it's the government putting a gun in my face telling me I have to work to pay someone-else's healthcare bills.

And the healthcare in their native land suffers for it.

Oh? This is what I think? I defy you to demonstrate this, Kreskin.

Show us all this one too. This is going to be lovely.

I care about doctors. It has nothing to do with caring about rich people.

If you want it to be universal, you want more. Don't mince.

A) The curent profit system is competing against the governement system which just appropriates revenue rasther than earn it; and B) both systems are beholden to the sacred, (but ultimatly false) premise that insurance absolutely must be required if you're to have any hope of civilized healthcare.

I would expect every ER visit to be no less than $10k, particularly if ERs expected every visitor to have a magic account with $10k in it for every ER visit--which just happens to be the very direction we are going in.

In the meanwhile, I do not advocate for turning people away from the ER. There was a time before health insurance when healthcare was affordable for most everybody, and charity took care of those for whom it wasn't. The difference now is that there is an insurance industry middle-man between you and your provider that needs to be supported by healthcare, as well as a monument to bureauocracy, financial, legislative, and political overhead--all of which does nothing to make you better, or make your healthcare more effective or affordable.

You, and those like you, would like to force me, and others, to participate. I'd like you to leave me, and others, alone.

nocal:

we currently refuse no one emergency medical treatment and i don't imagine that would change. additionally more people would receive routine treatment because it wouldn't be as expensive.

nocal:

more or less, yes, this would be true

nocal:

you already do.

nocal:

if this were true, then again, why is our healthcare so poor compared to other countries?

nocal: i guarantee you that if doctors were paid less (and keep in mind, the gov't could subsidize med school, etc.) there would be no shortage.

nocal: why do you think there are so many veterinarians? they get paid half as much as doctors.

nocal:

nocal:

shit. apparently you said no such thing, and i was talking about it hypothetically, in a loki-esque "take responsibility for yourself" type of way. apparently i can't tell the difference between caricature loki and real loki i apologize for mischaracterizing you in that way and i'll try to be more careful in the future.

nocal:

you seem more interested in their salaries than in lives.

nocal:

do you suggest getting rid of insurance?

nocal:

i agree with this, and i showed evidence before that it would be cheaper and simpler to have socialized medicine than what we currently have at the moment.

nocal:

you want to be left alone, you don't want to cut doctor's salaries by any amount, you don't want the insurance industry with their fingers in it, you don't want the government in it. where do we get the money to pay for exorbitantly expensive treatment, then?

LORDKAHUNA: Loki, you know I love you like a brother,

LORDKAHUNA: but the picture you paint of universal health is negative and doesn't reflect the experience of others who practice it.

LORDKAHUNA: I understand that this is your argumentative style, but where does this gun-pointing slavery exist?

From my experience it doesn't exist here in Canada.

What about treatment other than "emergency" treatment?

What about transplants, or joint replacement? There's alot of heathcare that falls outside of "emergency" treatment that victims of socialized heathcare are waiting for permission to get.

And this does not suggest slavery to you?

Don't take this the wrong way, but there were some plantation owners in 19th Century U.S. that couldn't figure out what all fuss about the blacks was about--maybe more importantly, some of the blacks couldn't figure it out either.

I'll admit to laying the hyperbole on thick

I guarantee, the really talented would take their talents where it pays better.

You say it's poor. But I'm not running off to another country fot the "superior healthcare, but foreigners certainly come here for ours. In fact, my experience with the Russian, Italian, Belgian, Norwegian, Greek, and Spanish Med students (to mention only the Europeans) suggests that we export the best healthcare. I don't see a lot of US MDs with foreign credentials, and my understanding is those who have foreign credentials aren't always veiwed with the highest regard.

There are fewer veterinarians than there are doctors, and they get paid less because people place geater value on the lives of their children than their children's hamster.

No you didn't. You provided a hearsay assertion attibuted to a socialist organization with a socialized heathcare aggenda.

NAACP President: Ron Paul Is Not A Racist

Uart: Nocal's stats are wonderful, but if I am a doctor, I wouldn't be giving any scheduling preference to the nocalsiffles either...

ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE ALERT!

Here are two similar situations, please tell me where each occurred and which one happened in a country with socialized medicine. (Both are true stories).

1) A retired man collapses while out for a walk. He is hurried off to the hospital, where he is patched up and subjected to tests. A day later he is informed that he has a heart condition. A pacemaker may solve his problem. He is denied the pacemaker, however, because it is possible that this will not happen again, and as long as he doesn't drive, cross the road or walk on any hard surfaces, he might not die. When it happens again, a pacemaker will be implanted.

2) A retired man collapses while out for a walk. He is hurried off to the hospital where he is patched up and subjected to tests. A few hours later he is informed that he has a heart condition. A pacemaker may solve his problem. He is scheduled for surgery the next day, and his pacemaker is implanted. He goes on to live his life as-normal.


Answer: #2 is America's AWFUL free-market system, #1 is the UK's NHS. #2 is my dad, his insurance covered the surgery. #1 is my uncle, the NHS refused to pay unless he was willing to wait till his heart stopped again.

HOBO: Hey Kids! Here is a reality check. :

If You work hard and make lots of money you can afford excellent health insurance and receive quality health care.

or

You can not work hard or do not work hard and/or you become a member of the social wefare, got your hand out for looking for a freebie system, well you are not going to receive the same quality healthcare.

Please explain to me why, if I work hard, get a great job and make lots of money, some dope without a HS diploma flipping burgers deserves or should receive the same healthcare as I do?

HOBO: so anyone regardless of there socio-economic situatiun, who gets sick or injured deserves the top notch healthcare?

The vast majority of strides in medical knowledge and implementation have been militaty or financially driven.

Therfore if you don't have the cash, you gonna have the rash

I find your lack of not facing reality - pathetic.

If You work hard and make lots of money you can afford excellent health insurance and receive quality health care.

Ron Paul's 2005 personal financial disclosures say:
Agnico Eagle Mines $15,001 to $50,000
Apollo Gold Corp $1 to $1,000
Barrick Gold $100,001 to $250,000
El Dorado Gold $15,001 to $50,000
Glamis Gold $50,001 to $100,000
Goldcorp Inc $100,001 to $250,000
Golden Cycle Gold Corp $15,001 to $50,000
Golden Star Res Ltd $1,001 to $15,000
Great Basin Gold $1,001 to $15,000
IAM Gold Corp $50,001 to $100,000
Kinross $15,001 to $50,000
Mines DOR VA Inc $15,001 to $50,000
River Gold Mines $1,001 to $15,000

Houston Chronicle dated May 23, 1996:

Paul, a Republican obstetrician from Surfside, said Wednesday he opposes racism and that his written commentaries about blacks came in the context of “current events and statistical reports of the time.”

[…]

Paul also wrote that although “we are constantly told that it is evil to be afraid of black men, it is hardly irrational.

Black men commit murders, rapes, robberies, muggings and burglaries all out of proportion to their numbers.”

A campaign spokesman for Paul said statements about the fear of black males mirror pronouncements by black leaders such as the Rev. Jesse Jackson, who has decried the spread of urban crime.

Paul continues to write the newsletter for an undisclosed number of subscribers, the spokesman said.

Or this from the Dallas Morning News dated May 22, 1996:

Dr. Ron Paul, a Republican congressional candidate from Texas, wrote in his political newsletter in 1992 that 95 percent of the black men in Washington, D.C., are “semi-criminal or entirely criminal.”

He also wrote that black teenagers can be “unbelievably fleet of foot.” […]

Dr. Paul, who is running in Texas’ 14th Congressional District, defended his writings in an interview Tuesday. He said they were being taken out of context.

“It’s typical political demagoguery,” he said. “If people are interested in my character … come and talk to my neighbors.” […]

According to a Dallas Morning News review of documents circulating among Texas Democrats, Dr. Paul wrote in a 1992 issue of the Ron Paul Political Report: “If you have ever been robbed by a black teenaged male, you know how unbelievably fleet of foot they can be.”

Dr. Paul, who served in Congress in the late 1970s and early 1980s, said Tuesday that he has produced the newsletter since 1985 and distributes it to an estimated 7,000 to 8,000 subscribers. A phone call to the newsletter’s toll-free number was answered by his campaign staff. […]

Dr. Paul denied suggestions that he was a racist and said he was not evoking stereotypes when he wrote the columns. He said they should be read and quoted in their entirety to avoid misrepresentation. […]

“If someone challenges your character and takes the interpretation of the NAACP as proof of a man’s character, what kind of a world do you live in?” Dr. Paul asked.

In the interview, he did not deny he made the statement about the swiftness of black men.

“If you try to catch someone that has stolen a purse from you, there is no chance to catch them,” Dr. Paul said.

nocal: "War on Christmas" bullshit, coupled with the belief that the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence have many references to "God."

he wants you to have all these personal liberties...but Tried to outlaw flag burning

Believes in a "New World Order"
Like, seriously, he does

Wants to "protect marriage" by defining it as between a man and a woman
Intorduces bill that would be "prohibiting the expenditure of Federal funds to any organization which presents male or female homosexuality as an acceptable alternative life style or which suggest that it can be an acceptable life style"

GOLD STANDARD GOLD STANDARD GOLD STANDARD

well but why not a silver standard? there is not very much gold in the world, and--



-- oh.
(some reasons not to have a gold standard)

as i've linked to before:
--believes that states can outlaw buttfucking in private
--believes that the fed shouldn't intervene if states want to erect religious iconography in state government buildings

--sends out obvious (and not so obvious) racist newsletters, letters, and mailers

--when the british ended slavery, slave owners were paid by the government, so ron paul actually believes that if the government had just paid for the slaves the civil war never would have happened

--theoretically he didn't write or know anything about his decades-long run of newsletters (i'll play this game for a moment) but he still employs the racist who wrote all that shit

--when confronted years ago about his racism, he alludes to the fact that the NAACP is full of uppity negroes and cites "statistics" as the reason he is not racist