LOki
Refusenik   SSHOLE |
Posts: 479 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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4/23/2007 at 14:22 |
Plate: Let's lay down our right to bear arms yazirian> http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/18/commentary.plate/index.html
poisonStocking> Plate: Let's lay down our right to bear arms - CNN.com
yazirian> dammit where is loki when you need him Plate is a fuktard, and Ted--The Motor-City Madman--Nugent is absolutely right on this topic.
But yazirian--spacemonkey--HAHAFUK! wants me to chime in. So in that peculiar idiom that endears me to all, I present to you the following:
Plate:
"Most days, it is not at all hard to feel proud to be an American. But on days such as this, it is very difficult."
LOki:
Agreed. Aside from the impossibility that Americans should be proud that Cho Seung Hui was an American, there is also the impossibility to be proud of the manner in which so much of American culture has accepted the values of criminals who demand that peaceful people remain peacful during their own murders, robberies, and rapes, by being peacefully unarmed; by being peacefull unabe to resist; by going peacefully to the slaughterhouse.
I could never be proud of having anything to do with preventing the student at VT from defending themselves from Cho Seung Hui--or suggesting notions preventing decent, peaceful people from defending themselves.
Plate:
"The pain that the parents of the slain students feel hits deep into everyone's hearts. At the University of California, Los Angeles, students are talking about little else. It is not that they feel especially vulnerable because they are students at a major university, as is Virginia Tech, but because they are (to be blunt) citizens of High Noon America."
LOki:
You mean Soylent Green America.
Plate:
""High Noon" is a famous film. The 1952 Western told the story of a town marshal (played by the superstar actor Gary Cooper) who is forced to eliminate a gang of killers by himself. They are eventually gunned down."
LOki:
"Soylent Green" is also a famous film. In "Soylent Green" people have complete disregard for each other, so much so that the government sanctions feeding people to each other.
But I digress, In "High Noon" at least one good guy is armed against the bad guys, and the bad guys don't shoot themselves after they're done shooting others. It's hard to understand your point unless you're trying to suggest that outside of your Beverly Hills neighborhood, good decent people, armed against bad people, are in a continuous gunfight in the streets. A suggestion that is patently absurd. The good guys in reality, are so law abiding, that they don't arm themselves because the laws make it burdensome--all the while the bad guys have no such barriers. In reality, only the bad guys can be counted on to be well armed, and the good guys hope to be rescued--nothing at all like the "High Noon" picture you'd like to paint.
If only it were a little more like "High Noon," then regular folks could not be construed as victims so automaticly. Alas, it's much more like "Soylent Green" where people in Beverly Hills neighborhoods could care less about the criminally violent victimizing unarmed regular folks, just so long as the elites can arm themselves, and the criminally violent stay out of Beverly Hills.
Plate:
"The use of guns is often the American technique of choice for all kinds of conflict resolution."
LOki:
Bullshit.
Plate:
"Our famous Constitution, about which many of us are generally so proud, enshrines -- along with the right to freedom of speech, press, religion and assembly -- the right to own guns. That's an apples and oranges list if there ever was one."
LOki:
In you own ignorant opinion Mr. Plate. I really wonder form this statement if you understand what apples and oranges are.
Plate:
"Not all of us are so proud and triumphant about the gun-guarantee clause. The right to free speech, press, religion and assembly and so on seem to be working well, but the gun part, not so much."
Well, Mr. Plate, since you have observed correctly that the right to free speech, press, religion and assembly and so on seem to be working well, I'd like to point out to you that you can thank the right to keep and bear arms for making that possible. Your speech, press, religion and assembly cannot be guaranteed free by the vote--the mice may vote to bell the cat, but that doesn't mean the cat will get belled.
Plate:
"Let me explain. Some misguided people will focus on the fact that the 23-year-old student who killed his classmates and others at Virginia Tech was ethnically Korean. This is one of those observations that's 99.99 percent irrelevant. What are we to make of the fact that he is Korean? Ban Ki-moon is also Korean! Our brilliant new United Nations secretary general has not only never fired a gun, it looks like he may have just put together a peace formula for civil war-wracked Sudan -- a formula that escaped his predecessor."
LOki:
KOREAN?!?!?!?!? What a desperate strawman.
How about this--Some misguided people will point at one mentally deranged individual who killed a bunch of people, and then focus on the fact he used a gun to do so. They will lay all the blame on the gun used, all the while ignoring the fact that the gun control legislation they are about to demand will serve as an obstacle only to sane, decent, law abiding folks--just as it did for the victims of the above mentioned mentally deranged individual. That our current gun control legislation is sufficiently burdensome on sane, decent, and law abiding folks, that it is effective at disarming these same sane, decent, and law abiding folks; inhibiting their capacity to defend themselves from the criminally violent.
Plate:
"So let's just disregard all the hoopla about the race of the student responsible for the slayings."
LOki:
Yes. Let's do just that.
Plate:
"These students were not killed by a Korean, they were killed by a 9 mm handgun and a .22-caliber handgun."
LOki:
Let's just disregard all the hoopla about the tools that a murder uses to murders with. The students were NOT kileed by by a 9 mm handgun and a .22-caliber handgun, they were killed by a Cho Seung Hui, and the gun legislation currently in place is suficiently burdensome to have prevented any of his victims from the means for sufficiently defending themselve from his murderuos rampage.
Plate:
"In the nineties, the Los Angeles Times courageously endorsed an all-but-complete ban on privately owned guns, in an effort to greatly reduce their availability. By the time the series of editorials had concluded, the newspaper had received more angry letters and fiery faxes from the well-armed U.S. gun lobby than on any other issue during my privileged six-year tenure as the newspaper's editorial page editor."
LOki:
This is because sane, decent, law abiding people want to know the exact reasons you would have them disarmed. They demand that you come clean and admit oplenly that the sole purpose of disarmament of the general populace is to more easlily subjugate the populace.
Plate:
"But the paper, by the way, also received more supportive letters than on any other issue about which it editorialized during that era. The common sense of ordinary citizens told them that whatever Americans were and are good for, carrying around guns like costume jewelry was not on our Mature List of Notable Cultural Accomplishments."
LOki:
Much further from the List of Notable Cultural Accomplishments than carrying around guns like costume jewelry, is the nanny state coercing people at gunpoint from carrying around guns like costume jewelry.
Plate:
""Guns don't kill people," goes the gun lobby's absurd mantra. Far fewer guns in America would logically result in far fewer deaths from people pulling the trigger. The probability of the Virginia Tech gun massacre happening would have been greatly reduced if guns weren't so easily available to ordinary citizens."
LOki:
Absurd is it? Logical? Absurd is the notion that guns, without the involvement of people operating them, kill people. Illogical is the notion that murderers using guns are somehow more murdersome than those who use any other means. The probability of the Virginia Tech gun massacre happening would not have been greatly reduced if guns weren't so easily available to ordinary citizens, rather the death toll would probably have been greatly reduced if guns were actually easily available to ordinary citizens.
Plate:
"Foreigners sometimes believe that celebrities in America are more often the targets of gun violence than the rest of us. Not true. Celebrity shootings just make better news stories, so perhaps they seem common. They're not. All of us are targets because with so many guns swishing around our culture, no one is immune -- not even us non-celebrities."
LOki:
People like you believe that violence is caused by guns because celebrities say so. All of us are targets of violence (and not just "gun violence", which is specially villified for patetly evident purposes) because most of us are not allowed to effecively fight back, and those who would shoot at us know it.
Plate:
"When the great pop composer and legendary member of the Beatles John Lennon was shot in 1980 in New York, many in the foreign press tabbed it a war on celebrities. Now, some in the media will declare a war on students or some-such. This is all misplaced. The correct target of our concern needs to be guns. America has more than it can possibly handle. How many can our society handle? My opinion is: as close to zero as possible."
LOki:
If the correct target of our concern needs to be guns, eplain why "war" and murder were so commonplace before guns were invented? You are wrong Mr. Plate; the correct target of our concern in all things should be people. Paying attention to guns rather than people is really the negligent behavior that leads to such tragedies as that at VT.
Plate:
"Last month, I was robbed at 10 in the evening in the alley behind my home. As I was carrying groceries inside, a man with a gun approached me where my car was parked. The gun he carried featured one of those red-dot laser beams, which he pointed right at my head."
LOki:
Why didn't you shoot him?
The better question is why would he felt so confident that you wouldn't shoot him?
Plate:
"Because I'm anything but a James Bond type, I quickly complied with all of his requests. Perhaps because of my rapid response (it is called surrender), he chose not to shoot me; but he just as easily could have. What was to stop him?"
LOki:
You could have shot him. That would have stopped him, and it would have stopped him from robbing (and perhaps killing) his next victim.
Better yet, if his previous victim were armed, and shot him, you wouldn't evn have this little tale to tell, and I just bet you wouldn't be praising the gun that saved your life and/or property, because you know as well as anybody does, that guns don't save lives anymore than they take them--people do--you're just disingenuous about it.
Plate:
"This occurred in Beverly Hills, a low-crime area dotted with upscale boutiques, restaurants and businesses -- a city best known perhaps for its glamour and celebrity sightings.
Oh, and police tell me the armed robber definitely was not Korean. Not that I would have known one way or the other: Basically the only thing I saw or can remember was the gun, with the red dot, pointed right at my head."
LOki:
See? Those cops had guns, I don't see you congradulating those guns.
Plate:
"A near-death experience does focus the mind. We need to get rid of our guns."
LOki:
A near-death experience does indeed focus the mind--that near death experience was a gift; never be so unprepared again. Being prepared means being prepared to fight for your life regardless of your assailant might be armed with. Being thus prepared may very well mean carrying a handgun, and it is not my business to tell that it is not--and it's none of your business to tell me what I need either.
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fl_projekt
I AM TEH FUKING FISHPUNCHAR. I WILL RAPE YOUR WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND PETS.  SSHOLEPosts: 449 Registered: 8/8/2003 Offline
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4/23/2007 at 16:48 |
I live just outside of Vegas in another county. The ony requirements out here is that you dont have a felony and that you register the hand gun or rifle. As long as its registered you are free to carry that gun on you unconcealed. You need a permit to carry it hidden on your body and those arent even that hard to get. I will admit, its not a large city, its just over 50,000. There are also some basic laws regarding that, you can't bring guns into casinos and banks. Its very common to see folks at WalMart with 9mms holstered along with other hand guns and revolvers.
That being said, there really isn't any violent crime (robberies, shootings, etc) commited, it's all pretty much domestic violence and drug possesion. I feel the fact that not KNOWING if the next person is armed stems the urge for criminals to act out. I didn't have that back in NY and never really thought about it. Its definitely something I have come to appreciate and I don't think I would be willing to give up that 'security' without a fight.
Now if I were thinking of doing something as horrible as the VT deal, and there was the possibility that when I opened the door, 5 or so of those people could be firing back at me, I would reconsider. Then again, I'm not in the mental state he was and I don't want to die.
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Mofo
dont give a shit  SSHOLEPosts: 421 Registered: 2/8/2004 Offline
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4/23/2007 at 16:51 |
Don't you think that one was a little too easy Loki? |
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jwalker
Token Discordian  SSHOLEPosts: 933 Registered: 8/6/2005 Offline
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4/23/2007 at 18:25 |
But what if a small animal falls down a hole and hurts its leg?
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Wrecker
Misanthrope  SSHOLEPosts: 427 Registered: 1/25/2006 Offline
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4/24/2007 at 00:35 |
jwalker: But what if a small animal falls down a hole and hurts its leg?
Then by all means, we should ban all holes.
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LORDKAHUNA
Don't make me fuk your moustache  SSHOLEPosts: 1586 Registered: 8/5/2003 Offline
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4/24/2007 at 10:36 |
Mofo: Don't you think that one was a little too easy Loki?
Oh look, a cowardly, vague little shitsnipe.
You obviously sport an opinion about this, why don't you spill it instead of the shit-filled cunt routine?
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Sexninja> I will not your farts |
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Uart
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 1228 Registered: 3/5/2005 Offline
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4/24/2007 at 11:45 |
Journalism professors are hardly experts on anything relevant to gun control... Or, really anything.
He's an expert on reporting on gun control, perhaps. |
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Mofo
dont give a shit SSHOLEPosts: 421 Registered: 2/8/2004 Offline
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4/24/2007 at 17:04 |
LORDKAHUNA: Mofo: Don't you think that one was a little too easy Loki?
Oh look, a cowardly, vague little shitsnipe.
You obviously sport an opinion about this, why don't you spill it instead of the shit-filled cunt routine?
Uh, ok then. I think gun control is a flawed principal that doesn't work. They are trying to prevent the criminal use of guns, so should instead focus on the trafficking and illegal sale of guns rather than the right for a citizen to lawfully own a gun. However, since this is something that the government ostensbily does already, there is no point in the government increasing their efforts on this, as it would only point out the fact that their previous efforts have been ineffective. Taking guns out of the hands of the citizen is a good way of saying, "We care about you" without doing anything actually useful, which would require time, money, and actual responsibility. Which, in itself, is ironic, because it is removing the ability of the citizen to defend themselves from a problem the government cannot fix.
Happy now? Now why don't you tell everyone what crawled up your ass and died recently to put you in such a pissy mood towards someone that has done nothing towards you.
On 2007-04-24 at 12:06:08, Mofo craps monkey baby |
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LORDKAHUNA
Don't make me fuk your moustache SSHOLEPosts: 1586 Registered: 8/5/2003 Offline
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4/24/2007 at 17:44 |
Happy now? Now why don't you tell everyone what crawled up your ass and died recently to put you in such a pissy mood towards someone that has done nothing towards you.
LOL 
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Sexninja> I will not your farts |
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard  SSHOLEPosts: 1596 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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4/24/2007 at 20:18 |
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...fuckabees |
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent  SSHOLEPosts: 552 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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4/24/2007 at 21:13 |
Just because one has the right to bear arms does NOT give him the right to so blatantly flaunt the use of the word "genuflect"
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Uart
DARTH MENSES Posts: 1228 Registered: 3/5/2005 Offline
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4/24/2007 at 22:27 |
Plate:
""Guns don't kill people," goes the gun lobby's absurd mantra. Far fewer guns in America would logically result in far fewer deaths from people pulling the trigger. The probability of the Virginia Tech gun massacre happening would have been greatly reduced if guns weren't so easily available to ordinary citizens."
LOki:
Absurd is it? Logical? Absurd is the notion that guns, without the involvement of people operating them, kill people. Illogical is the notion that murderers using guns are somehow more murdersome than those who use any other means. The probability of the Virginia Tech gun massacre happening would not have been greatly reduced if guns weren't so easily available to ordinary citizens, rather the death toll would probably have been greatly reduced if guns were actually easily available to ordinary citizens.
Plate is correct here on one count: Greatly reducing the number of guns would allow us to logically conclude that the number of gun-related deaths would be reduced as well. Legislation limiting or banning the possession of guns does not LOGICALLY lead to the same result, since not all guns are purchased through legal means (AND a FAR greater number of gun-deaths are perpetrated using the illegally purchased firearms).
Plate:
"Because I'm anything but a James Bond type, I quickly complied with all of his requests. Perhaps because of my rapid response (it is called surrender), he chose not to shoot me; but he just as easily could have. What was to stop him?"
LOki:
You could have shot him. That would have stopped him, and it would have stopped him from robbing (and perhaps killing) his next victim.
Lets say that guns didn't exist... would Mr. Plate have failed to comply if the robber had used a knife? Or if knives didn't exist, a prison-shank? People who aren't able to defend themselves are always going to be victims.
Plate:
"This occurred in Beverly Hills, a low-crime area dotted with upscale boutiques, restaurants and businesses -- a city best known perhaps for its glamour and celebrity sightings.
Oh, and police tell me the armed robber definitely was not Korean. Not that I would have known one way or the other: Basically the only thing I saw or can remember was the gun, with the red dot, pointed right at my head."
LOki:
See? Those cops had guns, I don't see you congradulating those guns.
Plate:
"A near-death experience does focus the mind. We need to get rid of our guns."
LOki:
A near-death experience does indeed focus the mind--that near death experience was a gift; never be so unprepared again. Being prepared means being prepared to fight for your life regardless of your assailant might be armed with. Being thus prepared may very well mean carrying a handgun, and it is not my business to tell that it is not--and it's none of your business to tell me what I need either.
Mr. Plate: Keep focusing... I'm not quite sure you can grasp this concept, but let me try:
Someone who is willing to go on the black market to purchase a handgun with a laser-sight on it, and then point that at your forehead while taking your money, PROBABLY DOESN'T GIVE A FUCK IF HILLARY '08 BANS GUNS OR NOT... He's going to serve life for shooting you, so who cares about the extra 5 months for weapons possession.
There is no deterrent there.
On 2007-04-24 at 17:39:13, Uart craps monkey baby |
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent SSHOLEPosts: 552 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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4/25/2007 at 15:57 |
I think the same argument often posited by libertarians for drugs applies equally to gun laws. You keep weapons legal to deter the black-market element that is a natural effect of banning them. But for people who aren't in favor of license regulation, I'm sorry, I don't get it. You control access and ownership of weapons for the same reason you control access to nuclear waste.
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LOki
Refusenik SSHOLEPosts: 479 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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4/26/2007 at 18:40 |
acheron: I think the same argument often posited by libertarians for drugs applies equally to gun laws. You keep weapons legal to deter the black-market element that is a natural effect of banning them. But for people who aren't in favor of license regulation, I'm sorry, I don't get it. You control access and ownership of weapons for the same reason you control access to nuclear waste.
I'll accept licensing weapons--all weapons--for criminals and the menetally ill--I'll take the experts at their word that rehabilitation and cures are valid.
There is one, and only one purpose for registration--fuure confiscation. So, I'll get behind registering all weapons that those who equire licenses, as suggested above, wold like to possess.
Not for anyone else though. Keeping and bearing arms is a right, and no one would tolerate requiring a license to excersize their religion or free speech, get a trial by jury, or be required to produce a license to receive due process.
I don't get those who think the excersize of rights should be contingent upon registration and licensing.
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HOBO
* b0bo has quit IRC ('Exit')  SSHOLEPosts: 1104 Registered: 3/19/2002 Offline
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4/26/2007 at 21:36 |
Why should anyone know if I own a gun? I prefer it be a surprise. I agree with LOki in that if law abiding Joe citizen owns a gun, by registering it with the guberment , it will only make it easier to be confiscated by said guberment. However, I do believe guns should have a serial # that is tracked by the gun manufacturer in case the gun is stolen or malfunctions and i want to have it fixed under warranty
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