bigdoug2005
Tender vittles  Posts: 38 Registered: 1/23/2005 Offline
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4/10/2007 at 00:14 |
Im not sure if we have any audio experts here, but I'll throw this out there.
I want to built a <$1000 basic system.
2 floorstanding speakers [Polk Monitor 50's]
Turntable [Audio-Technica AT-PL120]
Amp- Integrated, Power? This is where I have no idea
Equalizer- Do I even need one?
Its hard to find any sort of reviews on amps or equalizers that arent consumer craps. I dont want a full blown reciever with 13.2 sound and HDMI. I dont know what to be looking for, but somewhere in the $200 range would be ideal for the amp. Also, what the difference between integrated and power amps for this kind of stuff. It will be in a 9x13 room and I dont want a powered sub since its a town house.
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freakmachine
Web Fucko Extraordinaire   SSHOLEPosts: 588 Registered: 4/15/2004 Offline
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4/10/2007 at 16:39 |
Well, if you want to spend only 200 crackers you likely will only find consumer grade craps. I believe NAD has some nice 2-channel stereo amps if that is what you are looking for, but they are over 200. Rega makes some nice inexpensive turntables, likely more hi fi than audio techica. You may be able to do better than Polk for the price too.
Equalizers are irrelevant, at least that is my impression.
If you want suggestions from knowlegeable but crazy audio geeks then post your question at Audio Asylum , you should get some useful responses. They will also likely tell you to listen to different components before you commit to buying anything which is a good idea. |
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truenative
I'm what makes bread wonder.  SSHOLEPosts: 286 Registered: 1/6/2005 Offline
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4/10/2007 at 18:11 |
Been Said Here Before But I still Swear by mine:
$40
Sonic Impact T-Amp
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/t-amp_e.html
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Crackalackin
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 373 Registered: 7/19/2004 Offline
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4/10/2007 at 21:05 |
truenative: Been Said Here Before But I still Swear by mine:
Dude, good call! Although the link you _should_ have provided is:
http://www.michael.mardis.com/sonic/start.html
I have applied the stealth mod to mine, and, coupled with Paradigm Titans, it's the best sounding thing I ever heard, no matter the price.
Seriously, my audiophile friends got their socks knocked the fuk off. Their second shock was from learning the price (2x $50 T-Amps [I killed the first one] + $30 for caps + $20 for the potentiometer + $20 for the case + $100 for the used Titans).
On 2007-04-10 at 16:14:44, Crackalackin pooped back and forth... forever
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Crackalackin
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 373 Registered: 7/19/2004 Offline
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4/10/2007 at 21:08 |
And to the Original Poster, here's advice: stay away from Polks, they are proper shite. If you want good entry-level stuff, go for Klipsch.
Although, honestly, I think your best bet is to buy something mid-range yet very good, like PSB Alphas or Paradigm speakers through Craigslist. Pick out well-maintained set, and you can get significant discounts.
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truenative
I'm what makes bread wonder. SSHOLEPosts: 286 Registered: 1/6/2005 Offline
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4/10/2007 at 21:43 |
Crackalackin, Great Followup link, I hadn't been there before huzzah
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bigdoug2005
Tender vittles Posts: 38 Registered: 1/23/2005 Offline
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4/11/2007 at 01:20 |
Thanks for all the input.
I think I want to do this right so I'm just going to get a turntable to start and hook it up to my existiing stereo speakers then upgrade components as I go. I saw some good speakers on Craigslist last night so I will keep checking there.
http://www.tweeter.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1919047&cp=1124346&parentPage=family
I'll probably end up with that turntable since it was recommended on another forum and they have it at the only halfway decent audio store around here so I can test it out and return it if something is wrong.
I need an okay pre-amp for it
something like http://www.needledoctor.com/Bellari-VP129-Tube-Phono-Preamp?sc=2&category=401this. Maybe something cheaper. I know you all with show me something awesome for 1/2 the price.
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freakmachine
Web Fucko Extraordinaire SSHOLEPosts: 588 Registered: 4/15/2004 Offline
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4/11/2007 at 03:13 |
Is it really as good as all that? Damn, I want to try this bitch out.
Crackalackin: truenative: Been Said Here Before But I still Swear by mine:
Dude, good call! Although the link you _should_ have provided is:
http://www.michael.mardis.com/sonic/start.html
I have applied the stealth mod to mine, and, coupled with Paradigm Titans, it's the best sounding thing I ever heard, no matter the price.
Seriously, my audiophile friends got their socks knocked the fuk off. Their second shock was from learning the price (2x $50 T-Amps [I killed the first one] + $30 for caps + $20 for the potentiometer + $20 for the case + $100 for the used Titans).
On 2007-04-10 at 16:14:44, Crackalackin pooped back and forth... forever |
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Crackalackin
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 373 Registered: 7/19/2004 Offline
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4/11/2007 at 03:37 |
freakmachine: Is it really as good as all that? Damn, I want to try this bitch out.
I think so, and my audiosnob friends concur. It's _definitely_ worth the money, and the time investment to modify those input capacitors (or, you could buy a ready-to-use Super T-amp for $99). Coupled with good speakers + 2 days of Potishead to break in the circuitry = definite winnar.
But, sound is a personal thing, and your opinion may differ.
For example, I find that the T-amp thingy had good, solid soundstage, but not as wide as some of the NADs or Outlaws, or even the latest Ipod's Wolfson DAC's (which are, by the way, outstandingly tuned for headphones; outstandingly!). However, its clarity and detail are really unmatched (at any price level)--you can almost hear the sweat drip off of the singer's faces in live concerts. A lot of the music sounds _so_ good I can do nothing but sit, space out, and listen--and no drugs used or required 
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LOki
Refusenik  SSHOLEPosts: 483 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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4/11/2007 at 19:31 |
When buying audio equipment, go first to the place that caters to the freakshow high end. Listen to speakers. Ideally, you'll use a high quality recording of piano, guitar and/or vocals that you have first hand knowledge of. Regardless, use a recording of piano, guitar and/or vocals that you are well aquainted with.
The key to audio equipment is in the speakers.
Spend your money on the speakers.
Get the best speakers you can afford.
Amplifier technology is now at that state where distortion consideration are gone, and signal/channel processing are in. Get sufficient wattage and channel processing for your speaker configuration and worry no more.
And just get a reciever. Integrated and separate pre/power amps are meaningless to the median audiophile. Just make sure you got all the in/out-puts you can get for all the shit you will most cetainly hook into the thing.
Get the best speakers you can afford. In fact, spend all your money on speakers right now, and then buy the rest of the shit later.
And buy the best speakers you can.
Speakers.
Dig?
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LOki
Refusenik SSHOLEPosts: 483 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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4/11/2007 at 19:39 |
Oh yeah, one more thing:
EQs are for fucktards who can't actually hear the adjustments that are being attempted to make their stupid speaker selection sound better.
EQs are for fucktards that would rather have lots of neato looking diodes in their audio rack than a system that sounds good.
EQs are the equvalent of putting a set of Pep-Boys spinner rims on a '67 Jag.
EQs are for suckers.
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bigdoug2005
Tender vittles Posts: 38 Registered: 1/23/2005 Offline
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4/11/2007 at 21:09 |
Noted:
EQ's suck
Buy nice speakers
All is well
The search continues
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Crackalackin
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 373 Registered: 7/19/2004 Offline
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4/12/2007 at 03:34 |
LOki:
And just get a reciever. Integrated and separate pre/power amps are meaningless to the median audiophile. Just make sure you got all the in/out-puts you can get for all the shit you will most cetainly hook into the thing.
While I agree with getting good speakers, I must say good speakers + crappy amp = not worth it. It's not even a 60-30 split between the importance of speakers and amp; it's both or you're wasting your money.
Contrary to the "wisdom" of LOki, electronics have _not_ gotten to the point where anything sounds good. Good electronics cost good money, and even Brown-Burr DACs show a lot of difference in performance between a $5 chip and a $40 chip. And electronics manufacs like to maximize profit just like any other business.
So no, don't just "buy a receiver." Receivers are (a) lately mostly for surround sound and TV watching; and (b) have way too much electronics inside to serve way too many purposes, and thus limited real estate for sound processing.
If you're buying an amp, buy an amp. A discrete (i.e. standalone) and dedicated (i.e. single-purpose) is usually a lot better than a multipurpose receiver.
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LOki
Refusenik SSHOLEPosts: 483 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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4/12/2007 at 10:13 |
Out of boredom, allow me to disagree with everything (consistent with my idiom).
Crackalackin: LOki:
And just get a reciever. Integrated and separate pre/power amps are meaningless to the median audiophile. Just make sure you got all the in/out-puts you can get for all the shit you will most cetainly hook into the thing.
While I agree with getting good speakers, I must say good speakers + crappy amp = not worth it. It's not even a 60-30 split between the importance of speakers and amp; it's both or you're wasting your money.
Today, you'd have to deliberately buy a bad amp--like going to Sam's Club deliberate--to get one that actually fails to amplify signal correctly.
Crackalackin: Contrary to the "wisdom" of LOki, electronics have _not_ gotten to the point where anything sounds good. Good electronics cost good money, and even Brown-Burr DACs show a lot of difference in performance between a $5 chip and a $40 chip. And electronics manufacs like to maximize profit just like any other business.
Truth, but note my caveat: median audiophile. While not advocating buying shit for an amp, I am pointing out that the median audiophile will not note the difference between the accuracy of modern amplifiers as the high S/N ratios and low distortion levels of the exotic 100 watt pure class A amps of the '80s is pretty much the norm now.
So much so, that once you've dedicated yourself to a sensible pricepoint, the criteria to use for selecting an amp should be I/O connections and signal processing--and handle the controls; if the knobs and buttons don't have a sweet beefy "feel", if the construction leaves you with the sensation of having just handled a cereal box, don't buy.
Crackalackin: So no, don't just "buy a receiver." Receivers are (a) lately mostly for surround sound and TV watching; and (b) have way too much electronics inside to serve way too many purposes, and thus limited real estate for sound processing.
Considering that most audio equpment is now used to support the enjoyment of video equipment, surround sound is a legitimate feature.
Having actually been inside audio equipment, I know your "real estate" observation is meaningless--even the highest end equipment is mostly empty box. There is boatloads of room for sound processing inside the things. Besides, as luck would have it for me (and not you), surround sound IS sound processing rather than the frozen pizza cooking that your "way too much electronics inside to serve way too many purposes" might suggest.
Crackalackin: If you're buying an amp, buy an amp. A discrete (i.e. standalone) and dedicated (i.e. single-purpose) is usually a lot better than a multipurpose receiver. Not for the median audiophile. Discrete components mean a 30% increase in cost with virtually zero palpable benefit. You're giong to want a radio anyway, and the $200 cost of a discrete tuner is going to look fuking ridiculous to you when you know that for $10 more it comes built into the reciever that has the exact same integrated amp you're thinking of buying because a "discrete" amp is somehow "better" than a receiver.
The very best audio components are indeed discrete components, but being discrete is not what makes them best. Very few are those who can really discern the improvement in performance that these high end discrete components deliver, few can afford them, and few purchase the source material that takes advantage of such equipment.
The median audiophile will actually hear the difference between wicked high end speakers and very good speakers--the same just cannot be said for amplification. Spend the money on speakers, chooose a decent reciever with all the I/O you need, and do not buy an EQ.
On 2007-04-12 at 05:16:35, LOki pooped back and forth... forever
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LOki
Refusenik SSHOLEPosts: 483 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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4/12/2007 at 10:53 |
Crackalackin: And to the Original Poster, here's advice: stay away from Polks, they are proper shite. If you want good entry-level stuff, go for Klipsch.
Ok. Since I'm just being disagreeable, do the exact opposite of the above.
Certainly Polk has ventured from the strictly high end to service the 98th percentile, but if you avoid those 98th percentile products in the Wal-Mart electronics deptartment, Polk is pretty good, and still rationally priced. Maybe not my first choice these days, but still worth considering.
Klipsch, OTOH, is just fine for PA, but otherwise they are all about efficiency (meaning being loud) and having exaggerated bass response for club-beat "audiophiles"--not to say that's a bad thing, but if that's your style, buy Cerwin-Vega--they are often more efficient, they have a really cool bright red suspension that jiggles alot, and they cost alot less. Oh yeah, since you'd be riding that particular train, you might as well also buy the cheapest discret componentry available (including a 72 channel EQ), because that way you get a whole lot more LEDs in your cabinet and a big neon lit "BASS BOOST" button. 
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bigdoug2005
Tender vittles Posts: 38 Registered: 1/23/2005 Offline
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4/12/2007 at 13:05 |
Okay, here is my plan for now
Super T-amp Sherwood Stereo Receiver
TCC TC-750 Phono Preamp
Klipsch RB-61 I listened to these at best buy and they sounded undefined. Could have been the setup though. I just have to go out and listen, anyone know of good audio places in Raleigh, NC besides Tweeter or have any alternative suggestions? Axiom or B&W, but I dont know of any place that carries those brands.
Pro-Ject Debut III Turntable
Later
Sub
Better amp
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LOki
Refusenik SSHOLEPosts: 483 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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4/12/2007 at 15:38 |
At one point in my life, B&W made the best sounding floor standing speakers ever.
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Crackalackin
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 373 Registered: 7/19/2004 Offline
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4/12/2007 at 21:19 |
LOki: Out of boredom, allow me to disagree with everything (consistent with my idiom).
Hi LOki!
LOki:
It's much more like a 75/25 speaker/amp split.
Today, you'd have to deliberately buy a bad amp--like going to Sam's Club deliberate--to get one that actually fails to amplify signal correctly.
Nope. Don't have to be deliberate. Could buy Sony, or Pioneer, or Kenwood, or that Radio Shack brand, or some name which sounds good but is really Chinese cheapness in a box. The difference, as in cars, is between the models and not brand names.
LOki:
Truth, but note my caveat: median audiophile. While not advocating buying shit for an amp, I am pointing out that the median audiophile will not note the difference between the accuracy of modern amplifiers as the high S/N ratios and low distortion levels of the exotic 100 watt pure class A amps of the '80s is pretty much the norm now.
Hmm, I'm talking best sound for your dollar, and not "let's settle for mediocrity because LOki defines me as a median audiophile and I have no hope"
LOki:
Having actually been inside audio equipment, I know your "real estate" observation is meaningless--even the highest end equipment is mostly empty box. There is boatloads of room for sound processing inside the things. Besides, as luck would have it for me (and not you), surround sound IS sound processing rather than the frozen pizza cooking that your "way too much electronics inside to serve way too many purposes" might suggest.
Having a formal electrical engineering education, I'm going to say "fuck you LOki, you don't know what you're talking about." It's an empty box because a certain volume of air has to be there to provide adequate heat exchange and air movement while being stuck in a rack with dozens of other hot pieces of equipment. By "real estate," I mean electronics and the air flow volume.
And as much as you can minimize the DSP, there are always big capacitors etc. which need their space, and can heat up fast.
LOki:
Not for the median audiophile. Discrete components mean a 30% increase in cost with virtually zero palpable benefit. You're giong to want a radio anyway, and the $200 cost of a discrete tuner is going to look fuking ridiculous to you when you know that for $10 more it comes built into the reciever that has the exact same integrated amp you're thinking of buying because a "discrete" amp is somehow "better" than a receiver.
Thank you for your well-researched figures, such as "30% increase in cost" and "zero benefit." The real answer is: it depends. If there's proper internal shielding, then the radio circuitry will not leak currently airing programs into the amp section. With discrete components, the case and the spacing provides that proper shielding. Plus, there's that real estate thing again.
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vasudeva
Bad Taste in your Mouth  SSHOLEPosts: 4392 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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4/12/2007 at 22:04 |
Crackalackin: Having a formal electrical engineering education
For which you rode your magic broom uphill both ways, yes?
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LOki
Refusenik SSHOLEPosts: 483 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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4/13/2007 at 12:23 |
Crackalackin: LOki: Out of boredom, allow me to disagree with everything (consistent with my idiom).
Hi LOki!
LOki:
It's much more like a 75/25 speaker/amp split.
Today, you'd have to deliberately buy a bad amp--like going to Sam's Club deliberate--to get one that actually fails to amplify signal correctly.
Nope. Don't have to be deliberate. Could buy Sony, or Pioneer, or Kenwood, or that Radio Shack brand, or some name which sounds good but is really Chinese cheapness in a box. The difference, as in cars, is between the models and not brand names.
LOki:
Truth, but note my caveat: median audiophile. While not advocating buying shit for an amp, I am pointing out that the median audiophile will not note the difference between the accuracy of modern amplifiers as the high S/N ratios and low distortion levels of the exotic 100 watt pure class A amps of the '80s is pretty much the norm now.
Hmm, I'm talking best sound for your dollar, and not "let's settle for mediocrity because LOki defines me as a median audiophile and I have no hope"
LOki:
Having actually been inside audio equipment, I know your "real estate" observation is meaningless--even the highest end equipment is mostly empty box. There is boatloads of room for sound processing inside the things. Besides, as luck would have it for me (and not you), surround sound IS sound processing rather than the frozen pizza cooking that your "way too much electronics inside to serve way too many purposes" might suggest.
Having a formal electrical engineering education, I'm going to say "fuck you LOki, you don't know what you're talking about." It's an empty box because a certain volume of air has to be there to provide adequate heat exchange and air movement while being stuck in a rack with dozens of other hot pieces of equipment. By "real estate," I mean electronics and the air flow volume.
And as much as you can minimize the DSP, there are always big capacitors etc. which need their space, and can heat up fast.
LOki:
Not for the median audiophile. Discrete components mean a 30% increase in cost with virtually zero palpable benefit. You're giong to want a radio anyway, and the $200 cost of a discrete tuner is going to look fuking ridiculous to you when you know that for $10 more it comes built into the reciever that has the exact same integrated amp you're thinking of buying because a "discrete" amp is somehow "better" than a receiver.
Thank you for your well-researched figures, such as "30% increase in cost" and "zero benefit." The real answer is: it depends. If there's proper internal shielding, then the radio circuitry will not leak currently airing programs into the amp section. With discrete components, the case and the spacing provides that proper shielding. Plus, there's that real estate thing again.
If I read this correctly (and I think I do), beneath the subtext of "fuck you LOki, you don't know what you're talking about", you are validating my assertions, and agree with me completely.
Nicely crafted Mr. Formal Education In Electrical Engineering.
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Crackalackin
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 373 Registered: 7/19/2004 Offline
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4/13/2007 at 20:57 |
LOki:
If I read this correctly (and I think I do), beneath the subtext of "fuck you LOki, you don't know what you're talking about", you are validating my assertions, and agree with me completely.
Nicely crafted Mr. Formal Education In Electrical Engineering.
You read it incorrectly. Also, the "you don't know what you're talking about" is not subtext.
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LOki
Refusenik SSHOLEPosts: 483 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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4/13/2007 at 22:36 |
Crackalackin: LOki:
If I read this correctly (and I think I do), beneath the subtext of "fuck you LOki, you don't know what you're talking about", you are validating my assertions, and agree with me completely.
Nicely crafted Mr. Formal Education In Electrical Engineering.
You read it incorrectly. Also, the "you don't know what you're talking about" is not subtext.
Despite your explaination about heat dissipation, you fail to refute my assertion that here is plenty of room in a receiver's cabinet for everything housed there, as well as failing to demonstrate that discrete component inherently are better regarding said "real estate" issues. Indeed you assert that there is lots of empty space inside those cabinets, just as I did.
If you are about to go on that discrete components are better engineered with heat dissipation in mind than a reciever, you're going to come off as a fool for patently evident reasons, so I assert you really agree with me on this point.
You explain nicely that the amplifier section of a reciever, properly shielded from RF, works just fuking fine, but you fail to recoginze the significantly greater cost associated with separate tuner, pre-amp, and power amp configuations over a receiver, and that the same mid-level money invested in one or the other will most certainly favor the reciever in features and audio quality. It costs more to have redundant cabinets, potentiometers, power supplies, etc. To keep that mid-level price point, your discrete componentry will have compromised elements installed, and that is just the fuking way it is.
And I will gladly and honestly take the Pepsi challenge, putting a good $250 receiver up against a good $250 pre-amp/amp combo or an IA. If you can even tell the difference, I'll warrant the reciever will perform better both audibly, and on an oscilloscope.
If your ultimate point is that $300 out of a $1000 buget is better placed in upgrading amplifcation rather than speakers, your formal electrical engineering education is getting in the way of your sensibilities and your ears.
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bigdoug2005
Tender vittles Posts: 38 Registered: 1/23/2005 Offline
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4/15/2007 at 17:56 |
I went for a listen yesterday
Tweeter audio store: Polk, Focal, expensive, sounded "blah"
High end audio place: Paradigm, wow
I listened to the Titan monitors and Mini Monitors. For $500 the Titans sounded amazing and had decent bass. Granted, they probably had them hooked up to a $50,000 system.
Still looking for a receiver
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bigdoug2005
Tender vittles Posts: 38 Registered: 1/23/2005 Offline
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4/16/2007 at 15:48 |
Here is my final lineup
Pro-ject Debut III Turntable
Marantz 2270 Receiver
Paradigm Titan Monitor Speakers
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Sidechain
Funk Lord of the Universe.  SSHOLEPosts: 69 Registered: 8/18/2006 Offline
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4/16/2007 at 16:23 |
bigdoug2005:
Pro-ject Debut III Turntable
Marantz 2270 Receiver
Paradigm Titan Monitor Speakers
tsk tsk tsk. No Genelec = lose.
Actually, I kid. I've read that the Titans are supposed to be excellent at their price point, but alas, they probably aren't accurate enough what I do. As far as the Genelecs, I seriously wish I could afford a pair. They are truly jaw-drop amazing.
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aboroth00
Tender vittles  Posts: 1 Registered: 4/17/2007 Offline
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4/17/2007 at 13:58 |
Anyone have an inclination for PSBs? You could get a good pair of PSB images for well under 500. |
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bigdoug2005
Tender vittles Posts: 38 Registered: 1/23/2005 Offline
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4/18/2007 at 00:19 |
I picked up a trial pair of broken in Titan monitors that I can use for 2 weeks and I also bought a new pair that they had overstocked for $435, I'm hoping thats a good price since there are no online dealers and I wasnt able to find any pricing info on the web. The new pairs sell for $500 from this place so I figured $70 off is a good deal. They sound good hooked up to a crappy computer soundcard and logitech 5.1 system. Cant wait to get my reveiver and turntable.
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