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MistaCharisma
SIR BABYHEAD  Posts: 62 Registered: 9/28/2005 Offline
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12/2/2005 at 10:33 |
kissing hanks ass
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Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. |
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Wotak
You + Fava Beans = Yum   SSHOLEPosts: 708 Registered: 5/27/2005 Offline
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12/2/2005 at 10:48 |
nocal: God didn't "create" evil. If there exists good, it comes logically that something must exist to make it that way.
No, the bible claims that god created everything. Therefore nothing that exists can exist without gods hand having created it.
He created heaven and he created hell. He created humans and he created free thought. He created every choice you are able to make as a free thinking human and he created all of the consequences you will suffer from making the wrong choices. He created everything... and these aren't my words. They come straight from the bible.
nocal: Evil serves to give us a choice. God is a good parent. S/He says, "You know, I'm trying to turn you into a good wotak. So I will let you be responsible. But if you fuck up really bad and I don't think you're sorry...then there's really nothing I can do."
This is an admission that god is not all powerful. This does not jive with the story in the good book. An all powerful god can do anything... and if he loves us all even HALF as much as I love my wife and children, he'd do anything to ensure our safety and happiness...
Also, he certainly wouldn't have created an evil he is powerless to protect us from. I know I wouldn't do that to my children. Does that make me more good than your god?
nocal: ...besides the interesting theory that god is fractal and learning constantly about His/Her/Its own nature, which would of course that god doesn't know everything, there is at least one explanation.
This is an admission that god is not all knowing. This does not jive with the story in the bible.
nocal: ...did you know that Jesus contradicts himself in the bible?
Yes. I was forced to attend catholic mass twice a week for about 13 years. I also spent a fair amount of time as a young adult seeking a church that was more suitable. Life Of Faith and Fellowship, Methodist, Baptist... they all failed to make sense when you've studied the book they call good as well as I have and none of them could answer the same questions I'm currently asking while retaing the "God is all powerful" theme the bible reports.
nocal: He (God) is everything, really. He can't "be" anywhere, cuz he's just everywhere automatically.
This belief is similiar to my own. Where it differs is that you attribute an intelligence to this power, and I see that power as the star our planet rotates around. To me the closest thing to an all powerful god that is everywhere at all times, is everything and and is the thing that all living things depend upon for life is the sun.
I ain't about to worship a giant ball of flames... but you get the point.
It makes more sense to me that Evil and Good are products of the human imagination. We create our own evil and our own good. We create our own heaven and our own hell. We do it right inside our mind and we share it with the world around us... and that world reflects it right back at us.
We create our own happiness and our own sadness.
We create our own knowledge through questioning our very existence and the existence of the world around us.
...and in the end, I don't see a whole lot of truth in the story that an all powerful, all knowing, all good, all loving, everywhere at all times - entity - has anything to do with our existence because I have yet to see a single shread of evidence that can show me that this "being" is more powerful that the sun that all life TRUELY depends upon.
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middle_age_man
Mostly Harmless  SSHOLEPosts: 427 Registered: 1/11/2005 Offline
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12/2/2005 at 12:48 |
As a practicing Cargo Cultist I see my pantheon of gods fly overhead everyday, in fact there is an airport just down the road, I could go and bask in their winged wonder and pray that they drop their precious manna on my people everyday if I wanted to. What do you have to say about that, you godless heathen?
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" Honesty may be the best policy, but it's important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy."
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Uart
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 1228 Registered: 3/5/2005 Offline
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12/2/2005 at 15:01 |
Wotak: nocal: God didn't "create" evil. If there exists good, it comes logically that something must exist to make it that way.
No, the bible claims that god created everything. Therefore nothing that exists can exist without gods hand having created it.
Theologically speaking, God created Free Will, and then MAN created evil. Once God allows free will, he cannot intervene to stop that free will from creating evil. Did he know that evil would come of his creation? Probably. However, without the gift of free will there would be no greater purpose to the world than a Barbie playhouse. |
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SexNinja
the illest nigga  SSHOLEPosts: 1524 Registered: 10/28/2007 Offline
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12/2/2005 at 15:09 |
Please Note: I have nothing but the highest respect for Jesus' teachings as well as The Bhudda and lesons from the Upanishads and even the Koran/Big Mo. My lack of faith is not ment to be a "fuck you" to anyone else's faith. Believe what you must, I just don't see it. If I did then I'd ascribe to some religion and be a happy person, but I don't. Wish there was a pill for that!
Oh absolutely. If nothing else, I find most of those writings to be a good model in how to live a nice, healthy life at peace with the rest of the world. Where I start having problems with them is when people take the more impractical parts literally and try to force it on me or tell me I'm evil for not believing as they do.
nocal: God didn't "create" evil. If there exists good, it comes logically that something must exist to make it that way.
No, the bible claims that god created everything. Therefore nothing that exists can exist without gods hand having created it.
He created heaven and he created hell. He created humans and he created free thought. He created every choice you are able to make as a free thinking human and he created all of the consequences you will suffer from making the wrong choices. He created everything... and these aren't my words. They come straight from the bible.,
Yep. My mother (very devout, bordering on fundamentalist) christian has said this very thing to me several times. In her mind, God created everything including Satan and with him, evil. It does come straight from the bible.
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HAMFIGHTER> He shrugged, and started finishing himself off, on my breasts, while I was crying. |
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middle_age_man
Mostly Harmless SSHOLEPosts: 427 Registered: 1/11/2005 Offline
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12/2/2005 at 16:00 |
What's interesting to me is that most seem to equate atheism with being non Christian and cite the fallacies of the bible or the short comings of Christians to support their lack of faith. A wholesale rejection of spirituality would be much more honest. I’m just a soulless sack of meat that's a fine way for DNA to get around, as is every other organism on the planet.
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" Honesty may be the best policy, but it's important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy."
George Carlin |
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint  SSHOLEPosts: 811 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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12/2/2005 at 16:06 |
Anyhoo, I asked you a question in your forum about Christianity. It was the one about James the Just and Jesus' other siblings. I have many theories as to why they seemed to fall off the face of the earth after their miniscule mentions in the traditional gospels, but I'd like to hear your point of view. Where is our last Scion? Why does the Koran mention Jesus's family more than the Bible?(Too bad Dogma already made a mockery of the last scion thing, loved the film though) And one for the road...Mary of Magdelin, why is everyone so hard on her? She seems fine in the Bible. No mention of being a whore there. Why dash the ideal of the sacred feminine? Simply chauvenism, or is it more cunning than that, trying to oust other religions were they? Why? Why force ones own views/beliefs on others? Why "Spread the Good Word" and be a missionary? Are other cultures religions not as worthy of respect as the Christ's?
I will say this: it is nearly impossible to me to think that in an era where there weren't a whole lot of women's rights, Joseph did not fuck Mary even once after she had Jesus. I mean, not once?! It's not out of the question to me that Jesus could have siblings. Frankly though, they'd just be human. The thing about Jesus was that he was 100% human and 100% god. Without the god in that equation, there's not a whole lot that would actually be special about his siblings.
Really, I have no idea if he could have had any, or what. I mean, no one does, but I don't even really have a theory.
As for Mary Magdalene: basically sexism. It is quite often cited, as a reason to deny women the priesthood, that Jesus had 12 MALE apostles. Priests are apostles. But Mary Magdalene was the closest to Jesus, and it say nowhere in the bible that she was a whore. It's unfortunate that people just believe that kind of shit with no written proof in the bible they claim to follow.
He created heaven and he created hell. He created humans and he created free thought. He created every choice you are able to make as a free thinking human and he created all of the consequences you will suffer from making the wrong choices. He created everything... and these aren't my words. They come straight from the bible.,
Yeah, but you're ignoring choice here, as Uart pointed out. If there is no choice, that means that no one is ever going to be "truly" good. You can't force someone to be good, or it doesn't count.
Have you ever forced someone to apologize, but you know that they don't want to and that they don't mean it? You know that they're not actually sorry, and that they don't care, and that they'd do whatever it was again if they had the chance? That isn't good, that's just forcing someone to do the right thing.
And as I said, good wouldn't be good if there wasn't evil. With knowledge and free will, we can choose it. That's like saying that if god loved us, he wouldn't have created the night where we can't see and it's so dangerous. Well then what the fuck would "day" be?
This is an admission that god is not all powerful. This does not jive with the story in the good book. An all powerful god can do anything... and if he loves us all even HALF as much as I love my wife and children, he'd do anything to ensure our safety and happiness...
Also, he certainly wouldn't have created an evil he is powerless to protect us from. I know I wouldn't do that to my children. Does that make me more good than your god?
First, that's just fucking silly. Evil is not some entity that hunts us down that god has to protect us from. Every bad thing that I have ever done in my life, every time I've fucked up, every time I fail a test or check links instead of doing homework -- MY CHOICE. You're telling me that people just happen to stumble upon bad acts?
And that is pretty fucking high and mighty of you to assume that you can protect your family from bad things (that they will choose to do sometimes) and that you can somehow make it so that your kids never do anything evil. What kind of bullshit is that? You're going to have your kids under lock and key forever? If you don't allow them to grow up and do whatever they want, but still be there for them UNLESS they don't want your help, you're a shitty parent.
God, like I said, is a good parent.
EDIT: Wotak, I'm not implying that you are a bad parent or something. I think maybe I sounded like that. What I meant was that if you really tried to protect your family forever, that would be bad, because people have to be allowed to make their own mistakes. Doesn't mean that when they make mistakes, you can't be there to help, which I'm sure you will.
On 2005-12-02 at 10:09:02, nocal enjoyed furrysex |
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DonQuixote
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 641 Registered: 4/22/2005 Offline
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12/2/2005 at 17:51 |
middle_age_man: What's interesting to me is that most seem to equate atheism with being non Christian and cite the fallacies of the bible or the short comings of Christians to support their lack of faith. A wholesale rejection of spirituality would be much more honest. I’m just a soulless sack of meat that's a fine way for DNA to get around, as is every other organism on the planet.
Ah, finally someone begs the question, "why don't you atheists point out fallacies in all religions?"
Ok here goes.
Bhuddism - (as I understand it, remember I am a fucktard) There exists no personal God like the one that Christians and Jews and Muslims have in the Mahayana traditions. They do mention a hanfull of gods in their early scriptures But everything after Sidharta is kind of hard to explain. Its like God is this pool of "souls", there's a word for it but I forget, and when you reach enlightenment you get to hop in the pool and become one. But this isn't true for all forms of Bhuddism, some say Nirvana is NOTHINGNESS. There doesn't appear to be room for a god in their later teachings.
Polythiestic Religions:
Hinduism - Their stories are just as fanciful and unbelievable as the Bibles. However, I love that part in that one simpsons where homer is wearing an elephant head and he keeps saying "I am Lord Ganesh". Man that was some funny shit.
Greek Mythology (for lack of a better word) - All of the Gods are more than falliable, but at least they interacted with humans, however I doubt anyone actually witnessed this, it was more like a friend of a friend of my cousin Mythros told me... In essence the whole thing is fallable.
Ancient Egyptian Faith - The creator in Ancient Egytion faith created the first things that were not him out of his seamen and spit. He must have and enourmous sack. But I don't buy anything past that.
Wikka - Actually a very old religion. The modern Wikkans are really sort of posers that watched Buffy the vampire slayer too often. The real deal has alot to do with the sacred feminine. So God was a woman?!?!?! Fuck that!!! Just kidding. Any of their early writtings mentioning spells and such leads me to reject that faith outright. There is no such thing as true magic.
Kelts - Same as all other polytheist. No go for me.
I'm running out of time here. Back to the big three.
Christianity - Been there explained that.
Jewdaism - The tora is one boring as book. Its like a gigantic genology lesson in some places. Anyways, Gods all fallable and unbelievable in that, just like in its later version Christianity.
Islam - The Koran is an interesting book. Basically Muslims think of anyone that was a Jew before Muhhamed came along as a muslim. Thye even recognize Jesus as a great profit. Interesting, but all these faiths have the same montheistic fallacies that I just don't see.
Dragonstaff: (actually said something nice about me)
Thank you for the recognition of my efforts to leave the fucktardness behind.
Shitbox: Lots of stuff that sounded angry.
As for the Christmas hiliday (or Holy day) I do not celebrate it like christians. I explained this earlier. We as humans have a very finite time of existance. We should be gratefull for any Day, be it Hallmark made or Theistic in nature, that we can gather with family and friends. That is the most important part of life. I hope that answers your question from my perspective.
Remember Shitbox, My athiesm is not a affront to your or anyones belief. I would give just about anything to be able to make the leap of faith for ANY religion. You should pity me with your christian happiness.
ALL: Keep em comin. But be nice.
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Uart
DARTH MENSES Posts: 1228 Registered: 3/5/2005 Offline
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12/2/2005 at 18:43 |
sofickingwat:
Jewdaism - The tora is one boring as book. Its like a gigantic genology lesson in some places. Anyways, Gods all fallable and unbelievable in that, just like in its later version Christianity.
Torah is the hebrew for "the Law," it refers to the following books of scripture: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers -- the books that contain laws.
The FULL Jewish scripture is called Tanak, and is MOSTLY equivalent to the Christian Old Testament, except that it DOES NOT include the Apocrypha -- a certain group of books that popped up in the septuagint (greek translation of the Tanak) that weren't there in Hebrew. Early Christianity relied primarily on that Greek translation for a while, hence why Catholics still regard the apocrypha as canonical (although most protestants have removed it.
My Point: You don't know enough about non-Christian religions to discount them. |
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DonQuixote
DARTH MENSES Posts: 641 Registered: 4/22/2005 Offline
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12/2/2005 at 19:52 |
Uart: sofickingwat:
Jewdaism - The tora is one boring as book. Its like a gigantic genology lesson in some places. Anyways, Gods all fallable and unbelievable in that, just like in its later version Christianity.
Torah is the hebrew for "the Law," it refers to the following books of scripture: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers -- the books that contain laws.
The FULL Jewish scripture is called Tanak, and is MOSTLY equivalent to the Christian Old Testament, except that it DOES NOT include the Apocrypha -- a certain group of books that popped up in the septuagint (greek translation of the Tanak) that weren't there in Hebrew. Early Christianity relied primarily on that Greek translation for a while, hence why Catholics still regard the apocrypha as canonical (although most protestants have removed it.
My Point: You don't know enough about non-Christian religions to discount them.
You are quite right about the Tora and the Tanak. My mistake. Also one superduper book they left out of the old testament was the the Book of Enoch, supposedly written by a biblical figure. I think I wrote about this before. There are some modern versions of the Bible that contain the apocrypha, read it and its very nice, but still no belief here. We could delve into the Kabbalistic beliefs and all the other little tidbits and or offshoots of the Jewish faith, like how Hebrew letters can be substituted as numbers, codes hidden in the scriptures, the true name of God...one way beyond Yahwey, which for the Dead sea Scrolls the priests who were to write the word had to bath twice and put on new robes before writting the name, they had to do this every time they were to write Yahwey! How do I know this you aks? Because I have been to Israel. I have seen the Dead Sea Scrolls on distplay there. I have walked through the old city. I have seen the wailing wall and even visited the holy islamic site of the Dome of the Rock. I know enough about the Jewish faith to be able to argue several points but, as I said before, I am not here to argue about my atheism. just to answer questions others might have.
Anyways, MY point is I know enough for ME to discount other religions. You may not agree that my knowledge base is not strong enough to "make a decision" on these matters. But that's your thoughts not mine. All that matters to me is that I have made a great effort to understand ALL of the worlds religions, even the archaic ones like the Druids (the modern druids are a sham BTW, nothing close to the religion of old and they had nothing to do with the making of stonehenge) and all versions of God/Gods. But I don't feel "it". I have not found a personal God or a more Bhuddist type vision of God. You can study your brains out on this stuff, but what it comes down to is a leap of faith that I just can't make.
The reason why I am willing to field questions on something I hold extremely personal, is that I was "in the theological closet" for so long and had so much guilt about not really believing that when i finally was able to admit to my parents that I do not believe, I felt free. I just want to let anyone else out there, who may have doubts, know that its ok so does everyone else.
That's my PSA for the day.
Keep the questions rollin.
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Wotak
You + Fava Beans = Yum SSHOLEPosts: 708 Registered: 5/27/2005 Offline
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12/2/2005 at 22:38 |
Wotak: He created heaven and he created hell. He created humans and he created free thought. He created every choice you are able to make as a free thinking human and he created all of the consequences you will suffer from making the wrong choices. He created everything... and these aren't my words. They come straight from the bible.,
nocal: Yeah, but you're ignoring choice here, as Uart pointed out. If there is no choice, that means that no one is ever going to be "truly" good. You can't force someone to be good, or it doesn't count.
I completely agree with what Uart said. But there are other cause/effect realities that go beyond that simple explination of good and evil.
For example, a man make the choice to commit a drive by shooting to kill a rival. A stray bullet kills a 5 year old kid.
Why did this god that loves his children more than anything, allow that child to suffer through the pain of a bullet entering his chest, the chest tubes and un-anesthetized emergency open chest exploratory surgery only to watch himm suffer needlessly for hours until he drowns in his own blood?
This doesn't sound like a good parent, given the fact that this parent has the almighty power to stop that bullet from ever touching that child.
To me, that sounds like an absent parent... or a parent that doesn't care. Or a parent that is powerless to stop this "evil" from ever happening to begin with.
None of this points to an all powerful, all good, all loving "father".
nocal: Have you ever forced someone to apologize, but you know that they don't want to and that they don't mean it? You know that they're not actually sorry, and that they don't care, and that they'd do whatever it was again if they had the chance? That isn't good, that's just forcing someone to do the right thing.
No, I haven't but I understand what you're saying. It's sort of like the way religions use fear to scare people into following their moral code. For example, christianity has the boogy man in hell that will burn you for eternity if you break the rules. The suffering is explained to us as a lake of fire you will bathe in forever.
Scaring people into following a moral agenda is just attempting to force them to do "right" as well, is it not?
nocal: And as I said, good wouldn't be good if there wasn't evil. With knowledge and free will, we can choose it. That's like saying that if god loved us, he wouldn't have created the night where we can't see and it's so dangerous. Well then what the fuck would "day" be?
Not everything has an opposite. Good could be all we know if this all powerful being so chose to present life to us in that manner... if in fact he was an all powerful being. Night doesn't have to exist either - if god didn't want it to. You're comparing physical things to the power of an all powerful being. I'm challenging that beings existence... or at the very least, the common belief that the creator of life is a conscious, intelligent being.
For example, glass does not have an opposite. Yet it exists. Wood does not have an opposite, yet it exists. Blue does not have an opposite and it exists.
Good has an opposite because god created an opposite, according to the bible. He could have just as easily just made good all there was. I mean, this dude is supposed to be all powerful, right?
Wotak: This is an admission that god is not all powerful. This does not jive with the story in the good book. An all powerful god can do anything... and if he loves us all even HALF as much as I love my wife and children, he'd do anything to ensure our safety and happiness...
Also, he certainly wouldn't have created an evil he is powerless to protect us from. I know I wouldn't do that to my children. Does that make me more good than your god?
nocal: First, that's just fucking silly. Evil is not some entity that hunts us down that god has to protect us from. Every bad thing that I have ever done in my life, every time I've fucked up, every time I fail a test or check links instead of doing homework -- MY CHOICE. You're telling me that people just happen to stumble upon bad acts?
Yes. The choices that other people make effect you and are out of your control. God allows his most devout followers to be effected by this "evil" just as easily as he allows the people who don't believe he exists to be effected by it. He does nothing to help either, regardless of their devotion to him.
Kinda sucks, huh?
nocal: And that is pretty fucking high and mighty of you to assume that you can protect your family from bad things (that they will choose to do sometimes) and that you can somehow make it so that your kids never do anything evil. What kind of bullshit is that? You're going to have your kids under lock and key forever? If you don't allow them to grow up and do whatever they want, but still be there for them UNLESS they don't want your help, you're a shitty parent.
You misread what I was trying to say...
I'm not assuming that I can protect my family from anything. I'm saying that my love for them would drive me to to ANYTHING IN MY POWER to protect them from being harmed.
If there is an all powerful father that loves us even 1/16th as much as I love my family, he wouldn't have the ability to allow anything bad or unfair or evil to happen to us that he has the power to stop... and since he's all powerful he can stop anything from hurting me. Or my children... or yours.
The fact is, that if he exists and is all powerful and loves us the way the bible say's he does...
Well, he must not be paying attention because good, innocent, god following people are brutally raped, beaten, murdered, blown up, fall from high places, die in fires, are crippled in auto accidents, disfigured in hippo attacks... every day.
nocal: God, like I said, is a good parent.
If indeed a god exists - he is, at best, a deadbeat Dad.
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"silly linux users. sharts for you" --hobo |
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DonQuixote
DARTH MENSES Posts: 641 Registered: 4/22/2005 Offline
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12/3/2005 at 01:27 |
Wotak:
If indeed a god exists - he is, at best, a deadbeat Dad.
If I may interject. The only form I could even imagine God taking would never be the white robed big beard guy. I'm thinking undefined, as in not comprehensable by human minds, like infinity or 1/0.
Feelings? An infinite God would, if he/she/it had these, it would experience feelings completely differently. Imagine the time ratio of GOD's lifespan as compared to one of ours. Its not even a sneeze. Sorta like the existance of the human race vs how old the earth is. For you rock hounds out there geological time vs bilogical time. Realativity plays a big roll there. Human suffering would be like "poofthennothing". It would say "whats the deal?" nothing happened? Of course communication is a whole nother deally yo.
Conciousness? Of God? its anyones guess, but I doubt it thinks in a linear pattern. Imagine all knowlege happening all at once infinitely.
Perfection? What would one compare God to for a definition? if one couldn't even comprehend God then how could one try and compare it to something else, as in A is better than B cause its more pointy than B. Even then much of perfection comparison is a matter of opinion.
Hmmm. This issue of an infinite God's perception of time intrigues me. I have to admit I have never thought of this before. ITS A HUGE "WHAT IF"!!!
If that one aussie kid is correct, time doesn't exist. Its a human cotrivance to measure shit. Now we are all slaves to it, but what could you expect for a creature with such a short lifespan, humans not god (or giant tortises they live really long right?). So no begening no end...I got nothin.
As for good/evil, yin/yang, etc etc., Bad stuff happens to good people. I wrestled with this when my dad got cancer. There's a theory, that in order for the universe that we live in to exist, it HAS TO EXIST EXACTLY LIKE THIS or it wouldn't exist at all. Can't for the life of me remember who it was that said it (Oddly enough I think I first read about it in "The Case For Christ) If gravity (force or space time blanket like einstein thought) was a little stronger or a little weaker everything goes wrong. Pick something, anything and test this theory. Its not perfect but its neat-OH.
I ain't pullin no C.S. Lewis here, I don't believe in a god. I wish i could. Think of all the stuff I wouldn't have to worry about!!!! Death! No biggie there's an afterlife. How to be a good person? Its right there in the Bible. Ten commandments no need for further chatter. I literally have no problems with the ten commandments whatsoever. They are a good rule of thumb to go by. That's why I don't steal. They seem to me to be like inalienable rights only they are rules.
Anyways, If god existed, the only way I could imagine it would be incomprehensible. What good does that do me now?
I still don't see it. it all comes down to a leap of faith that I cannot make.
Maybe they'll have some nice meds to take so that I can believe in something!!!
Ahhh pillz. I take em till I'm full!!
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shitbox
my balls your chin, get used to that idea  SSHOLEPosts: 934 Registered: 1/9/2005 Offline
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12/5/2005 at 23:09 |
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"Kill him! Kill the fuckin' indian! What am I watching here two fuckin' fags!?"
Rodney Dangerfield as Ed Wilson
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dinozoa
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 319 Registered: 7/18/2004 Offline
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12/5/2005 at 23:38 |
sofickingwat: middle_age_man: What's interesting to me is that most seem to equate atheism with being non Christian and cite the fallacies of the bible or the short comings of Christians to support their lack of faith. A wholesale rejection of spirituality would be much more honest. I’m just a soulless sack of meat that's a fine way for DNA to get around, as is every other organism on the planet.
Ah, finally someone begs the question, "why don't you atheists point out fallacies in all religions?"
Ok here goes.
Proceeds to ignore the intent of MAM's comment, and talk about all the religions he can think of, specifacally, not addressing the issue of religion in general.
To address MAM's comment about atheism as a rejection of spirituality in general, not specific religions:
This is tricky. I don't really understand what it means to be spiritual. Does spirituality refer to those things which require faith to believe? If so, then we should believe nothing, because our senses can be deceived, we know nothing to be real except 'I think, therefore I am', etc.
So I think that science is a faith-based belief system, it just has very compelling reasons for faith, ie it's worked pretty good so far. Like all belief systems, it can be misapplied (eugenics) by its followers, or misunderstood by all except its most senior custodians (Einstein and co.)
So I think that 'spiritual' is a term that scientists apply to people in other religions, but don't apply to scientists, but I think it's ok to apply it to scientists.
We've been conditioned like lab rats, in a sense. The rat says, if I touch the switch I get the cheese. The human says, if I have faith in science and put money and thought and work into making scientific advancements, then I will have fancy new gadgets and whatnot. Doesn't mean that we're right, that science is the one True faith.
Still, it's a hell of a lot easier to believe in a religion with computers and refrigerators than a religion with whips and crucifixes and cold, hard churches. |
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vasudeva
Bad Taste in your Mouth  SSHOLEPosts: 4469 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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12/5/2005 at 23:53 |
dinozoa: So I think that science is a faith-based belief system, it just has very compelling reasons for faith, ie it's worked pretty good so far.
Agreed insofar as the compelling reason for faith in science is proof... which, as I understand it, is anathema to faith, or at least counter to the whole thrust.
Faith and science may share a similar silhouette, e.g., "How does stuff work, and how did I get here?" but are otherwise qualitatively (pun) different:
Science is self-correcting. The errors get sorted out through trial, documentation, and peer review. All hail the scientific method.
Faith is, for lack of a less loaded term, self-blinding. Errors get fossilized into the permanent legend of canon. Thank allegory, hyperbole, and oral tradition.
On 2005-12-05 at 17:56:16, vasudeva enjoyed furrysex
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DonQuixote
DARTH MENSES Posts: 641 Registered: 4/22/2005 Offline
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12/6/2005 at 09:06 |
Dinoza: You misses MAM's point.
Now that I look at it yes I did miss MAM's point. The wholesale rejection of "spirituality". I have no idea how to even quantify "spirituality" and thusly reject it. If it ment the idea of a spirit inhabiting the avatar of the human form, then I would say that I don't think we have these "spirits".
However, This brings up an idea that I have been thinking about. The label of "athiest". All I can find for a definition is "one who does not believe in God". (God being an omnipotent thingy that created everything etc etc.) This is too linited. It seems to really lean toward the western faith's which only have one God.
And what about "belief"?? What if I don't really believe there's a God, but I am searching for one, or some form of one constantly. Am I still an atheist? Can you be a half assed athiest??!?!?!?!
Let me put these questions into perspective. I was recently asked to join the Masons. In order to becaome a member AT ALL you have to swear on your name that you believe in God or a creator (in the singular). I couldn't swear to that. However, if someone asked me to swear if I DID believe in God, I couldn't swear to that either. I have no leaning towards either side.
I do hope there is a God, cause if this is all there is then, well that is way not as kewl as an afterlife and stuff. I just can't find it. Church is frustrating cause there are all these people who get something that I don't and it just makes me think "why do they get to believe and not me?".
[qoute]Dinoza: Scince is faith based.
Now I do agree that many scientists act on a "faith" in taking one theory as true and then extrapolating more theories. But by definition a theory is not a law, until it is proven. And even a law can be disproven once it is disproven ONCE. If a law or theory (not the same thing remember that) is false one time then it is no feasible and one must go back to the drawing board to provides a series of proofs in that are never false or just give up.
Anyways as for the sceince is faith BASED, I reject that wholesale. If something is a theory then its a theory not a fact/law. Many people forget this. Remember its the "theory" of relativity not the "law" of relativity. Coas thoery is just that a theory based on some observations of quantum mechanics. Science is constantly changing. When I was growing up Stephen Hawking came up with a theory that Black Hole's take in matter but spit it out in miniscule litle bits, but he later recanted that theory. Anyhoo, a true scientist/mathmatician/physicist/etc would never just accept a theory as law.
Also, "I think therefore I am" is a philosophical idea, not a scientific one. Descartes was a mathematician and a philosopher. If you were to ask a scientist if one existed then a series of physical proofs would have to follow in order to prove the Theory of existance. If the proof was wrong just once then the thoery or scientist would have to go back to the drawing board.
However, debating "fact" is a pain in the ass and (as Dinoza said) only the most advanced of the intelligencia can really understand what fact is. But my answer would be the same one that people who believe in God might give. "Prove to me that we don't exist." Then I'd run away giggling cause its a stalemate.
As for weather or not I am an "athiest" by definition...I dunno. Does it matter?
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Pchimp
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 159 Registered: 6/18/2003 Offline
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12/6/2005 at 23:44 |
dinozoa:
So I think that science is a faith-based belief system, it just has very compelling reasons for faith, ie it's worked pretty good so far.
It sounds like you have a somewhat misguided pop notion of what science is and how scientists think. Vas and SFW have more-or-less echoed my views, but before I go off on a tangent, could you please answer this: if science is a faith-based system, what are the tenets of faith?
Like all belief systems, it can be misapplied (eugenics) by its followers,
I think that capacity for unethical use is neither necessary nor sufficent for a "belief system." Such capacity is irrelevant. I don't view a gun or radioactivity as a belief system, no matter how much harm can be caused by their misuse.
or misunderstood by all except its most senior custodians (Einstein and co.)
This is telling (though maybe it was simply written as a quick add-on that you didn't really think through). There are no "senior custodians" or keepers of the faith in science. Einstein was a smart, talented scientist; and one who made mistakes just like every other successful person. He's only a superhero in pop science; but in real life he rode on the shoulders of an army of investigators. His name was on some key papers, but his ideas didn't leap unbidden from his mind -- he simply built on the work of others. His superhero status is more a product of how media presents him.
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ghostrider
liberal exit  SSHOLEPosts: 2451 Registered: 7/29/2004 Offline
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12/7/2005 at 00:42 |
I have converted to Christianity.
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Pchimp
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 159 Registered: 6/18/2003 Offline
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12/7/2005 at 00:45 |
You're still not getting your foreskin back.
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ghostrider
liberal exit SSHOLEPosts: 2451 Registered: 7/29/2004 Offline
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12/7/2005 at 00:48 |
troo dat
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Dumbskull
I'm assuming the position!  SSHOLEPosts: 1903 Registered: 4/22/2004 Offline
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12/7/2005 at 00:57 |
ghostrider: I have converted to Christianity.
In approximately 486 BC, at the age of 80, the Buddha died. His last words are said to be...
Impermanent are all created things; Strive on with awareness.
ghostrider you are so much better and will enjoy so much in your current life with your own beliefs than you would ever find in simple Christianity. You are on the right path.... don't fuck it up.
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DonQuixote
DARTH MENSES Posts: 641 Registered: 4/22/2005 Offline
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12/7/2005 at 01:47 |
Pchimp: dinozoa: or misunderstood by all except its most senior custodians (Einstein and co.)
This is telling (though maybe it was simply written as a quick add-on that you didn't really think through). There are no "senior custodians" or keepers of the faith in science. Einstein was a smart, talented scientist; and one who made mistakes just like every other successful person. He's only a superhero in pop science; but in real life he rode on the shoulders of an army of investigators. His name was on some key papers, but his ideas didn't leap unbidden from his mind -- he simply built on the work of others. His superhero status is more a product of how media presents him.
Noice!! You are way leet with the communication skillz. I literally could not have said it better myself.
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