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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint   SSHOLE |
Posts: 820 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 00:01 |
There is talk around here of adding some content. There is also talk about Nazis and Fascists. I figured, hey, why not combine the two. So I took my worthless liberal arts major (Psychology) and wrote (from memory) about two seminal studies that explain a lot about human nature.
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Ever hear of Stanley Milgram? He conducted a relatively famous experiment regarding human nature. He put out ads in the paper offering approximately, in today's money, $20 for an hour of work. The men (all subjects were men) were shown around once they were pre-screened. Here's the room where you will be, you will be the teacher, this is the learner, this is his room, he will be hooked up to the electrodes like so.
The "teacher," you see, was the subject who signed up. The "learner" was supposedly just like them, answering an ad for $20. They would be in separate rooms, and the teacher would attempt to teach the learner a set of paired words. It was supposedly a study on memory and pain. When the learner got them wrong, the teacher would shock the learner.
That's crazy. No one was really electrically shocked. But the teacher had no idea. The teacher was the subject being studied, while the learner was a "confederate" -- an actor in league with the researchers. He would only pretend to be shocked in the other room.
By all the "supposedly"s I threw in there, you should know that this study wasn't about learning -- it was about obedience. The teacher would shock the learner, who inevitably got the words wrong. There were 30 switches, ranging from "Small shock" to "Danger" to the ominous "XXXX".
After the first few shocks, the learner protested slightly. He complained of chest pains. He was uncomfortable, and it hurt. But the man in the lab coat would simply ask that the teacher continue. And he would. After a time, the learner would cry out. "Help me! I can't go on! My heart, I'm dying!" The man in the lab coat would simply say, "It's important that you continue."
Before the teacher reached the "XXXX" switch, the learner simply stopped making noise when he was shocked. He wouldn't even say anything when the word pairs were asked. The man in the lab coat would say, "It's necessary for the experiment that you continue." The teacher would ask the word pair. Silence. "Wrong. Now administering x volts." He'd flip the switch. Silence. The man in the lab coat says, "Continue."
The key being that they could leave at any time. They were told that they could keep the money no matter what. They were only told one of four statements, which all were to the effect of what is written above. They could have reasonably quit at any time.
Over 60% of the teachers went all the way. Many showed strong signs of distress during the experiment: laughing inapproprietly, crying, hand-wringing. They were offered counseling after the fact. Most expressed that they were glad to have had the experience. It taught them invaluably about themselves, as well as about human nature.
Milgram built a career out of these types of experiments. Follow up research was done where the teacher was in the same room as the learner. Fewer could make it to the "XXXX" switch. Fewer still (around 10%) were willing to physically push the learner's hand onto a "shock pad."
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The Stanford prison experiment
Conducted by Zimbardo in the '70s. At Stanford, he took students in his psych classes and randomly assigned them to be either prisoners or jailers.
Jailers began to torture prisoners in ways that mirrored those used by our own CIA: push ups, standing for long periods, degradation, slapping.
Prisoners began to get depressed, compliant, and essentially act like criminals. These people, keep in mind, were Stanford undergrads who had more than likely never done anything wrong ever.
Zimbardo realized what was going on. They were assuming roles. Their fake prison on the university grounds was spiraling dangerously out of control. Prisoners spoke of suicide, while guards were being brutal and callous. But Zimbardo assumed the role of Warden. He let it go for a short while until he realized that even he had been sucked into the experiment.
It was supposed to last a week. It lasted five days before he pulled the plug.
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Small note here: neither of these studies could ever be approved now. They are relics. The ethics violations are staggering. The lives endangered are countless. And there are few studies that will ever show us so much about human nature all at once.
What does all this say about human nature? That people will, for the most part, do what a man in a lab coat gently asks them to do, as long as he thinks that he isn't accountable. The man in the lab coat never inspired fear, never yelled, never threatened. He asked. Under the guise of following orders, the teacher followed. They would say things like, "I won't be held responsible if he gets hurt."
The prison experiment shows that people will enter roles. People who go to jail or prison BECOME prisoners. It's a self-perpetuating cycle; a prisoner will have a difficult time ever becoming not a prisoner.
It says that people who exude power will tell you what to do, and you will fill a role. Unless you're aware, unless you're stong-willed.
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ghostrider
liberal exit  SSHOLEPosts: 2502 Registered: 7/29/2004 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 00:06 |
Nice.
Remember Third Wave ? |
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vasudeva
Bad Taste in your Mouth  SSHOLEPosts: 4524 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 00:09 |
I like this Mr Milgram and would like to subscribe to his newsletter.
Also, I suspect that's what the Dharma Initiative's hatch is all about. "Push the button! No matter what!" Boy, is that Locke going to feel silly when he finds out.
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slippedhole> I am on to you and your evil intentions. I am the true protector of this website and am willing to do battle with you. |
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sahlgoode
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 254 Registered: 7/6/2005 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 00:40 |
Valuable lesson there nocal.
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Closed indefinitely in accordance with the Digital Milennium Copyright Act (DMCA) of 1998 |
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JohnLenin
Putting the semen in amusement  SSHOLEPosts: 1085 Registered: 7/8/2005 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 00:49 |
I remember learning about the first one a while back. Interesting stuff.
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[Clavis_A] he's one of the few people i've ever seen that bear a striking resemblence to their own dick |
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Heather
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 667 Registered: 11/24/2004 Online
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11/23/2005 at 01:22 |
^Quite a contribution. 
I like the RaidersofthelostarkslashGhostbusters emote of that experiment. Not too shameful. No coinpurses made out of the nipples of failed test subjects. Sadly, these are the experiments that fascinate me.
Tuskegee still makes me wince at the sheer boldness of it.
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LORDKAHUNA
Don't make me fuk your moustache  SSHOLEPosts: 1663 Registered: 8/5/2003 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 01:27 |
I wonder if you can compare elements of the first experiment to the tubgirl/lemonparty/goatse phenomenon. How many times do you see a random clicky in athread or comment section, witness the dryheaving from people who have clicked it, and click it anyway just to see if it contains candy.
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the rice I had yesterday came out practically verbatim |
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fastlane
Zombie scream style  SSHOLEPosts: 701 Registered: 2/7/2004 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 01:54 |
Are you brave enough. Candy
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I love the sound of silence. It gives me something else to break. |
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HOBO
* b0bo has quit IRC ('Exit')  SSHOLEPosts: 1142 Registered: 3/19/2002 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 01:57 |
SEE? Now thats funny. Fastlane you pile of steaming jocularity.
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" I have never understood the female capacity to avoid a direct answer to any question." ~Spock~
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent  SSHOLEPosts: 561 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 02:20 |
Look the threads all awesomed up already.
I was actually recently discussing all these studies with my brothers, one of whom shares your useless (but not really) liberal arts degree and another of whom is well informed. I saw the video of the electro-shock thing and it was absolutely crazy. I also saw a video of the prison study and it was equally insane. I covered most of this shit in social psych and can definitely see why people find it interesting. I still may pursue it as a minor provided I ever go anywhere considered a real school.
My parents are both clinical social workers with undergrad psych degrees by way. My brother just entered duke's grad psych program. If you are seriously interested in this shit and driven enough you can make serious money. Eventually. Thanks for posting something of interest.
On 2005-11-22 at 20:25:20, AcheronDCS enjoyed furrysex
On 2005-11-22 at 20:38:47, AcheronDCS enjoyed furrysex
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I'm an INTJ. This explains why I'm alternating between silence and judging you. |
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fastlane
Zombie scream style SSHOLEPosts: 701 Registered: 2/7/2004 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 02:35 |
AcheronDCS: Look the threads all gayed up already.
Dood my post was to test LKs theory. Nothing wrong there.
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I love the sound of silence. It gives me something else to break. |
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent SSHOLEPosts: 561 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 02:38 |
Oh ok. Nevermind then.
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I'm an INTJ. This explains why I'm alternating between silence and judging you. |
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint SSHOLEPosts: 820 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 05:58 |
I wonder if you can compare elements of the first experiment to the tubgirl/lemonparty/goatse phenomenon. How many times do you see a random clicky in athread or comment section, witness the dryheaving from people who have clicked it, and click it anyway just to see if it contains candy.
Something tells me that MadTurk would have a great response to that one.
How about another landmark study...one that applies as much to our community as the last two?
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Little Albert
John Watson was a hard headed bastard. Because he was at the helm of a burgeoning science, he had a lot of room to explore his ideas. One was the familiar Tabula Rasa -- the Blank Slate.
In the usual Nature vs. Nurture debate, Watson was obviously on the nurture side. He once famously said something to the effect of (extreme paraphrasing here): "Give me ten healthy infants and complete control over their environments, and I will make them into anything of your choosing: lawyers, thieves, beggars." Here was a man who fully believed that, regardless of the child, if he were allowed full control, he could make a child into whatever he saw fit.
If you're wondering how exactly he did this to "Little Albert," then you will be surprised to hear that he didn't. He did something slightly cooler and more despicable. He trained a baby to be afraid.
Part of the nature/nuture debate was fear and reflexes. Reflexes can be conditioned; Pavlov proved that with salivating dogs. (An even better one: that knee jerk response when the doctor hits your knee with the mallet? You can condition that with a bell so that your knee jerks only from hearing the bell ring. No shit.) But phobias and fears -- surely we're born afraid of spiders, of heights, of deep water. It only makes sense to be automatically afraid of things that can hurt us.
Watson got ahold of a baby, Little Albert. Albert was the usual baby, in that he was cheerful, etc. He loved the white rabbit that Watson showed him, he loved his blanket. That was about to change.
Watson wanted to condition a human to fear. Every time that Albert reached out to touch the rabbit, Watson used wooden blocks to make a loud noise from behind Albert. This upset him, and he would cry. After a short time, Albert was afraid of the rabbit, and seeing it without any noise scared the living shit out of the infant.
It didn't stop there. Albert generalized his phobia. He was scared of a white rat. White blankets, a man with a beard, they all made Albert launch into hysterics. The only part left of this experiment was to "extinguish" the conditioned response, that is, to return Albert to his natural state.
Albert's mother figured out that some sadistic fucks were scaring the shit out of her infant son, and she pulled him out of the experiment before they could make him stop being scared of white fur. No one knows who Albert really was, and no one knows what happened to him.
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This is another experiment that could never ever be conducted today. It's patently cruel and strange, but it did give quite an interesting insight.
Fear, like reflexes, can be conditioned. We may not know what exactly caused our fears, but they exist because of something that happened to us. |
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Stump
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 310 Registered: 6/18/2002 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 07:17 |
Our German friend posted the link to the obedience experiment back in May. Very disturbing video to watch, excuse my shitty not making it a samll click here type link.
http://www.linkswarm.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Web_Links&file=index&l_op=viewlinkcomments&lid=18366 |
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Uart
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 1228 Registered: 3/5/2005 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 07:55 |
fastlane: Are you brave enough. Candy
:-( ... I saw "eels" in the URL and thought maybe it was some extra-cool japanese eel-in-vagina/anus porn.
It wasn't.
nocal: {abused baby story}
Beat me to that one.
Actually though, I think that some of these studies, while they aren't fully and unabashedly ethical are actually worthwhile (not the baby one, thats just wrong). I don't know how I would act in those situations. Probably in the worst possible way. I'm a jerk. I can see how that sort of thing might cause a person to become shaken up, but at the same time if they still can't handle it after discovering that they didn't kill the dude, then maybe they have bigger mental problems than they think?
I mean, I only took Intro to Psych, but I AM a useless liberal arts major myself if it's worth anything. |
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Dumbskull
I'm assuming the position!  SSHOLEPosts: 1924 Registered: 4/22/2004 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 11:44 |
Too much grey matter and not eneough gay matter in LS makes my head hurt.
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Easier to get into than a community college. |
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fastlane
Zombie scream style SSHOLEPosts: 701 Registered: 2/7/2004 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 12:17 |
Reflexes can be conditioned; Pavlov proved that with salivating dogs.
This is so true with me. No secret i'm a recovering addict. When I see an advertisment or think about alcohol my mouth waters. Not for the taste but because I know that when I imbibe I will get that warm fuzzy feeling I like.
Now I feel like an experiment.
:-( ... I saw "eels" in the URL and thought maybe it was some extra-cool japanese eel-in-vagina/anus porn.
It wasn't
I left the eels.jpg name on it to trick you into thinking you were getting candy.
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint SSHOLEPosts: 820 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 12:45 |
Actually though, I think that some of these studies, while they aren't fully and unabashedly ethical are actually worthwhile (not the baby one, thats just wrong).
Things to consider when proposing an experiment:
Value
Good
Harm
That is, is it valuable to the scientific community? And will it do more good than harm to the participants?
It hurts psychology as a science to trick people sometimes, because then they are skeptical of psychology as a whole. Each one of these 3 experiments are REALLY fucked by today's standards. The first, the participant believes that he is hurting a human being, causing them great emotional distress. That video really shows what it was like for them. The second one, it endangered the lives of students within 5 days. People talked of suicide, and Zimbardo was adamant about continuing because he was as much a part of the experiment as anyone. The Little Albert one -- well, anyone can see how fucked up that is.
BUT they all have huge huge value. They teach us things that would not be possible to learn with conventional experiments today. Back then, experiments set out to prove or disprove a fact. Now, it's about statistical hypothesis testing, which is boring and gay.
Question being: does their value outweigh the harm?
When I see an advertisment or think about alcohol my mouth waters. Not for the taste but because I know that when I imbibe I will get that warm fuzzy feeling I like.
You may know this already, but there is a cognitive therapy (they change your thinking) where they extinguish that urge. For example, a man who freebases; they have him watch a video of two men freebasing and monitor his heart rate and blood pressure. After a few weeks he barely registers a change.
Eventually they step it up. He does all the steps: sets up the bong deal, the ether, everything up to the point of actually smoking. Then he stops. After a few weeks, that doesn't do anything for his BP and heart rate.
Essentially, he kept relapsing because seeing someone smoke or the idea of smoking gave him good feelings. So at some point, you will not feel good when you see alcohol. In fact, I would encourage you to think not about good feelings, but about how you embarrassed yourself, or how it made your life worse, or how horrible your hangovers were.
(I am not licensed plz don't listen to me thnks) |
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Heather
DARTH MENSES Posts: 667 Registered: 11/24/2004 Online
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11/23/2005 at 15:52 |
Manchuria, 1941: Lin Minga and Tamara Kazursky shrank back in fear, petrified by the sight before them. They stood at the entrance to an operating room with two tables, wearing only flimsy gowns. But neither of them needed an operation. Petite, 17-year-old Lin Minga had been living with her parents and working in the local factory when the dreaded kenpeitai, the Japanese military police, had taken her to their headquarters for interrogation. Her brother was in the communist-led anti-Japanese resistance, but she did not know anything about it. Yet, after three days of torture, she was bound hand and foot to another woman, put in the back of a closed van, and driven to a prison. A virgin, she had been forced to have sex with numerous men, all of whom, she later discovered, had venereal diseases. Not surprisingly, she became pregnant. During her pregnancy, the Japanese doctors repeatedly examined her and took blood, urine, and vaginal tests. She had given birth to a beautiful son two days ago. Now she had been dragged to this death laboratory. Nineteen-year-old Tamara Kazursky, a beautiful White Russian girl whose family had lived in Harbin for more than 20 years, worked at her parents' bakery and was engaged to be married. She had been walking home when she was caught in a "sweep" by the local militia. The soldiers had been told to get subjects for experiments, and she had been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Quickly bundled into a tight "package," she was thrown onto a sealed boxcar and taken to this chamber of horrors. She, too, had been forced to have sex with numerous men, contracting a venereal disease that was causing her severe lower abdominal pain. The Japanese doctors seemed to take a special interest in her once the pain developed. "Get up on the table and take off your gowns," said the Japanese nurse in broken Chinese. "This is a medical procedure, and won't hurt a bit." Orderlies and doctors quickly stripped the young women and pushed them onto the tables, securing their arms, legs, and torsos. As the two women stared up in horror, eight men in white clustered around the table. One doctor, seemingly in charge, said "No anesthesia; it might compromise our findings." At each table, a doctor took a scalpel and quickly cut open the women's abdomens. The girls let out nightmarish screams as their bellies were ripped open and their entrails exposed. Lin Minga had enough composure to yell, "Kill me, but not my baby," before she lapsed into unconsciousness. Tamara's body continued to twitch as her uterus and ovaries were removed and blood sprayed the ceiling. Unnoticed by the doctors, their hearts eventually stopped and their agony ended. The doctors had the samples they wanted. Their bodies were dragged to the incinerators and their identities lost forever. None of the doctors felt any guilt. They had done this numerous times and anyway, these were only worthless maruta [logs].
source
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fastlane
Zombie scream style SSHOLEPosts: 701 Registered: 2/7/2004 Offline
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11/23/2005 at 23:50 |
Nocal: ack. Sounds like torture. I aready do the bad things that happened to me deal. So far so good.
Heather. Double ack. We humans have done horrible acts in the name of science.
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint SSHOLEPosts: 820 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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11/30/2005 at 04:59 |
So anyway, all of these apply to human nature. Online, each of these experiments is an example of things that have been discussed as being wrong for LS as a community.
Milgram and fake shocks: People will follow a lead. When an Alpha / someone with a high post count / someone who should know better derails or shits up a good thread, idiots come out of the wordwork to do the same. It's in that spirit of acceptance and trying desperately to be approved of by some of the more interesting people here. Everyone does it at one point or another, I've done it; it's that stage where you think that you're the "linkswarm police." Also scaring off new people / encouraging (bad) trolls is lumped into this category.
Zimbardo and prison: People will fill any assigned role, regardless of whether or not they actually fit that role. SFW becomes site fagot / whipping boy, and he fills that role (ok maybe he's just like that). Qwerty is treated like an annoying shit over anything he posts, and he is constantly an annoying shit (ok maybe he's just like that). A better example maybe is AcheronDCS commenting that he has been seen as a serious political poster. Ever get that feeling that you have to behave in expected ways, even when you don't want to? When we make up our minds on people as a community and assign them a role and treat them accordingly, they will begin to fit that role.
Ok, you're saying, but what if SFW and Qwerty are really fucking idiots no matter what we say? Well, positive reinforcement is more effective than negative reinforcement (empirically speaking). Encourage good posting. You don't have to blow someone who writes something you agree with, but don't immediately dismiss everything that someone says. You might be surprised. Which leads me to the next study in human nature --
Watson and scaring the shit out of Albert: Fear can be conditioned into a reflex. We can make people scared. But as everyone (hopefully) has learned at some point, instilling fear is the worthless way to make someone respect you. People who respect will do so out of a sense of admiration and will respect no matter what; it's for adults. Instilling fear will only force someone to hold a false respect until they don't have to be afraid of you any longer; it's for children. Teach a man to fish, I guess.
What I'm getting at here is talk of bans and whatnot. I'm not opposed to banning those very few people that Vas has banned -- I have no doubt that Vas hates to do it and will only do it when it's absolutely necessary -- but it won't make the caliber of people here any better. I do see the point of probation, because that's really a matter of punishing a disrespectful act.
But. I think that if you are setting an example for new people, they will follow it. They will respect you if you grant them respect. It's only the internet and get over it fag, but people will be better here if we are better.
Thankfully, I have seen kind of a nice change around here. People replied respectfully to my (probably kind of weak) attempt at doing something constructive. And I definitely appreciate Heather adding. I thought that Kahuna's thread wasn't very productive, but I'm really glad to see that I was wrong. I'm glad that he spoke up. |
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tantrum
I'm a big boy now!  SSHOLEPosts: 474 Registered: 11/23/2003 Offline
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11/30/2005 at 05:43 |
Ok, you're saying, but what if SFW and Qwerty are really fucking idiots no matter what we say? Well, positive reinforcement is more effective than negative reinforcement (empirically speaking). Encourage good posting.
I think they both sometimes enjoy negative reinforcement more. They relish being the bad guy. It's somehow akin to walking the onto the home field of the opposing team and hearing the boo's of the crowd and getting pumped up to play because you want to show all those booing assholes a thing or two. They take being the bad guy to another level by PROVOKING the negative reinforcement. So I think the negative reinforcement only spurs them on.
I thought that Kahuna's thread wasn't very productive, but I'm really glad to see that I was wrong. I'm glad that he spoke up.
YEP
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dagwood
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 396 Registered: 12/19/2004 Offline
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11/30/2005 at 09:22 |
fastlane-Double ack. We humans have done horrible acts in the name of science.
But moreso in the name of religion
In 777 , Charlemagne, a devout Christian, after conquering the Saxon rebels, gave them a choice between baptism and execution. When they refused to convert, he had 4500 of them beheaded in one morning.
In the fourth century, Emporor Constantine, the first Roman Emperor to become a Christian, had over 3000 Christians executed because their interpretation of the Bible did not agree with his. That is more than the number of Christians who died at the hands of the Romans during the well known 1st century "Christians to the lions" persecutions.
Queen Isabella, famous for sending Columbus to the New World in 1492, was well known also for her 'Spanish Inquisition', the gruesome torture and murder of tens of thousands of Spanish Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, people who read or wrote, uppity women, and anyone else not up to the Queen's strict standards. Isabella was a champion of the faith, piously congratulating herself as her victims writhed to their deaths in the flames and the many other ingenious methods of torture invented by her inquisitors.
In the 12th and 13th centuries, the Inquisition was born, with Christians killing Christians, during what was known as the Albigensian heresies. Hundreds of thousands of people died because their Christianity did not agree with official dogma. This adds to the irony of murder in the name of Christ, when the majority of victims of the early inquisitions were themselves Christians.
As Christianity took over Europe, attempts to supress Pagan holy day celebrations met fierce resistance. Their solution was to absorb these holidays, purloin them, and make them into Christian holidays.
From about 500 until the end of the 15th century, Europe languished in 1000 years of superstitious, plague-ridden ignorance. All of the old wisdom was systematically blotted out and replaced with Catholic dogma.
The church encouraged ignorance among the general populace: Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153), the most influential Christian of his time, bore a deep distrust of the intellect and declared "that the pursuit of knowledge, unless sanctified by a holy mission, was a pagan act and therefore vile."
"During the regime of the later Inquisition in France, torture became systematized and reduced to a most simplified formula. Only two forms were recognized: ordinary and extraordinary. The former consisted of lashing the victim's wrists to an iron ring in the wall and securing his feet to a second ring in the floor. Then, by hauling on the ropes, the unfortunate wretch could be effectively racked until his joints were dislocated. Extraordinary torture consisted of the 'water cure', thirty pints of water being forcibly administered to the victim. The mode of execution was also fixed. The heretic sentenced to death was lashed to a wooden cross. Then the executioner broke the bones of each leg and each arm in two places by blows with an iron bar and the victim was left to die. As a rule, however, death was too slow to satisfy the public, so the victim was burned." (Executions were often held in public, the better seats commanding higher ticket prices.) 1
Tied to the rack and stretched gradually (or quickly) for days, elongation of bodies was reported by various sources to cases of twelve inches, a result of systematic dislocation of every joint in the body, loud popping sounds mixing with shrieks of agony, futile cries for pity. With the prisoner tied to this horrific device, the inquisitor would then employ a variety of more subtle tortures. Red hot pincers would tear off nipples, tongues, ears, noses, and genitals. Intestines were slowly wound onto pulleys before the dying victim's eyes. Crosses branded into the flesh of the shrieking wretch brought him/her closer to God and his Infinite Mercy.
Enough history for now. The more I learn, the more I realize that Christianity is utter bullshit. Religious fundamentalism has always been a convenient excuse for bloodshed. The "pious" lust for power through converts and coersion by torture is a sad testament to any religion that presumes to espouse "the will of god."
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not intense purposes, not intensive purposes
FOR ALL INTENTS AND FOR ALL PURPOSES
INTENTS AND PURPOSES
FUCK- nocal |
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kinkster99
Tender vittles  Posts: 22 Registered: 1/18/2006 Offline
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1/19/2006 at 18:20 |
Read about these experiements in Psychology in college. If you're interested in Human Nature and how it works it marketing the best book is:
Influence: the psychology of persuasion (by Robert Caldini).
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When in doubt, she wants you to unhook her bra. |
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She is definitely a goddess, but she probably is a bitch. See how sour grapes make me feel better because I will never fondle her lovelies? -- freakmachine
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