vladtweano
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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7/21/2005 at 14:01 |
Here are the latest developments in the Karl Rove/Valerie Plame/Joe Wilson/Radioactive Niger war bamboozle CIA identity leak brouhaha, in handy forum format so you can ignore it if you want to.
While everyone was talking about Bush's Supreme Court announcement (which even they admit was moved ahead to take the heat off Rove), it's been reported that Rove withheld information from the FBI during their first interview.
Also, the State Dept. memo that was being circulated around Air Force One in July 2003 that identified Plame as a CIA agent was clearly marked Secret. Anyone with a security clearance knows what that means. That is all.
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard   SSHOLEPosts: 1690 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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7/21/2005 at 16:38 |
i hope this fucker finally gets burnt.
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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7/21/2005 at 16:53 |
that washington post story was page 1 above the fold this morning. so much for taking the heat off.
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DonQuixote
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 641 Registered: 4/22/2005 Offline
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7/21/2005 at 17:16 |
He's our very own Rasputan. Kind a. Eitherway I hope they burn his genitals off with a bic lighter. (It takes longer and has a lower temp so moar Pa!n)
Hugs (>'')>
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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7/22/2005 at 15:10 |
today's tidbits include:
rove and cheney aide lewis libby's testimony about how reporters first told them the Plame's identity are at odds with what the reporters have said.
keith olberman reported last night that the air force one state dept. memo was labelled "top secret" rather than just "secret", not that it should make a difference.
and there's this nytimes article (requires registration) which suggests that rove and libby may have colluded to get their stories straight. highlight:
"People who have been briefed on the case said the White House officials, Karl Rove and I. Lewis Libby, were helping prepare what became the administration's primary response to criticism that a flawed phrase about the nuclear materials in Africa had been in Mr. Bush's State of the Union address six months earlier."
"They had exchanged e-mail correspondence and drafts of a proposed statement by George J. Tenet, then the director of central intelligence, to explain how the disputed wording had gotten into the address. Mr. Rove, the president's political strategist, and Mr. Libby, the chief of staff for Vice President Dick Cheney, coordinated their efforts with Stephen J. Hadley, then the deputy national security adviser, who was in turn consulting with Mr. Tenet."
all that work to do and they still have time to work with the nsa to write a resignation speech for the cia director. that's dedication.
this shit is coming out daily like clockwork. whoever these "people familiar with/who have been briefed on the case" are, they're not from the white house or the prosecutor's office. i'm guessing the cia is kinda pissed off.
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DonQuixote
DARTH MENSES Posts: 641 Registered: 4/22/2005 Offline
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7/23/2005 at 00:56 |
yup
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 13:28 |
unravelly ravelly
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"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
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Heather
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 738 Registered: 11/24/2004 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 15:14 |
I fully realize that I’m one of the complacent lemmings of America for having to ask this but what was the purpose in leaking a CIA operative’s identity to a reporter? The husband of the operative was an outspoken opponent of the good old boy on Pennsylvania Avenue but what is the rationale for outing his wife? |
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 15:32 |
intimidation. i'd explain, but ^that article does it better than i could:
"Behind the scenes, the White House responded with twin attacks: one on Wilson and the other on the CIA, which it wanted to take the blame for allowing the 16 words to remain in Bush's speech. As part of this effort, then-deputy national security adviser Stephen J. Hadley spoke with Tenet during the week about clearing up CIA responsibility for the 16 words, even though both knew the agency did not think Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger, according to a person familiar with the conversation."
what i still find incredible is that these guys apparently thought nothing about revealing official secrets when they decided "let's out a cia agent to send a message to others that they should shut up". anyone with even a minimal security clearance has this stuff drilled into them regularly. they must be either stump stupid or recklessly brazen to have decided on this course of action. possibly-treasonous behavior aside, you never fuk with the agency.
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- Groucho Marx |
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Heather
DARTH MENSES Posts: 738 Registered: 11/24/2004 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 16:23 |
I'm not at the apex of the learning curve on this issue. Again, I accept responsibility for my blatant ignorance.
WMD in Iraq = 16 words, yes?
Faulty intelligence blamed for justification of war.
But...Why out the wife? I still fail to grasp the rationale. |
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DonQuixote
DARTH MENSES Posts: 641 Registered: 4/22/2005 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 16:45 |
Heather: I'm not at the apex of the learning curve on this issue. Again, I accept responsibility for my blatant ignorance.
WMD in Iraq = 16 words, yes?
Faulty intelligence blamed for justification of war.
But...Why out the wife? I still fail to grasp the rationale.
they're republicans they don't use rational only the bible and the buddy Jesus
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DonQuixote
DARTH MENSES Posts: 641 Registered: 4/22/2005 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 16:46 |
damn my pic didn't work cause of the text war
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint  SSHOLEPosts: 833 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 16:53 |
The husband called them out on their faulty intelligence. He was a credible person to believe, thereby undermining the bullshit that Bush & Co. were shovelling. They know his wife is undercover. They out her in a way to say, "Those of you that have something to lose, don't fuck with us." |
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard SSHOLEPosts: 1690 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 16:59 |
Heather: I'm not at the apex of the learning curve on this issue. Again, I accept responsibility for my blatant ignorance.
WMD in Iraq = 16 words, yes?
Faulty intelligence blamed for justification of war.
But...Why out the wife? I still fail to grasp the rationale.
either to discredit wilson, although i fail to see how that would exactly work.
or petty retaliation/vindictiveness.
or what nocal said.
[Edited on 27/7/2005 by mundhra]
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 18:25 |
Heather: WMD in Iraq = 16 words, yes?
close. 16 words == “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”
this was a lie and they knew it. the intel had been based on a single obviously forged document.
cheney's office asked the cia to look into it (why i don't really know, since the white house and the cia were and still are warring on each other. for a lot more on that, read richard clarke's book).
the cia sent joe wilson, a former ambassador who happened to be married to a cia agent who may or may not have recommended him for the job (not relevant).
he came back and said "this is bullshit". they used it in the state of the union address anyway (the 16 words).
*WAR*
joe wilson got mad and wrote an op-ed in the nytimes calling bullshit, and went on all the talk shows.
But...Why out the wife? I still fail to grasp the rationale.
mundhra: either to discredit wilson, although i fail to see how that would exactly work.
or petty retaliation/vindictiveness.
or what nocal said.
the white house apparently, as we're now finding out, decided to blow his wife's cover for two reasons:
1. to smear wilson using the media (this is where all the reporters come in) by saying "ahhh don't listen to him listen to us and besides, his wifey got him the job, what a fag, can't trust him". if you don't see exactly how this would work, you haven't been studying the karl rove noise machine.
2. as nocal said, to intimidate anyone in the intel community who might come forward and shred their war rationale.
both of these are, imo, fuking disgusting.
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Heather
DARTH MENSES Posts: 738 Registered: 11/24/2004 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 18:38 |
I cannot make the leap of "nepotism appointment" = "untrustworthy" and didn't think anyone else with more than 3 brain cells to rub together and make sparkles would either.
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard SSHOLEPosts: 1690 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 18:52 |
vlad: if you don't see exactly how this would work, you haven't been studying the karl rove noise machine. i see misdirection, but i don't recall the nepotism issue.
"ahhh don't listen to him listen to us and besides, his wifey got him the job, what a fag, can't trust him". did this ever really happen with much vigor, or am i just forgetful?
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 19:34 |
Heather: I cannot make the leap of "nepotism appointment" = "untrustworthy" and didn't think anyone else with more than 3 brain cells to rub together and make sparkles would either.
that's because you live in the "reality-based community".
logic is not a necessary component of the karl rove noise machine. all that's necessary is to seed a rumor, usually through a surrogate, and it gets amplified and repeated until it becomes truth. this has worked for him time and again. one democratic opponent who was big on child welfare issues became a pedophile. john mccain became a stool pigeon as a p.o.w, mentally unfit for office and the father of an illegitimate black child. al gore became a compulsive liar and egomaniac. max cleland became unpatriotic. paul o'neil became a lying sour grapesy crybaby. richard clarke became a malcontent and a perjurer. john kerry became a cowardly metrosexual who ran from firefights.
very often this is done using "whisper campaigns" or "push polling". the phone rings in south carolina and a poller asks "if you knew that john mccain had fathered an illegitimate child, would you be more or less likely to vote for him?"
that there are hard facts out there that contradict these things does not impede the machine. once the headline is out there being repeated, it becomes a truth. media whores usually won't debunk it for fear of being called partisan. they will give the lie equal time with the facts, call it "balance", and then talk about shark attacks.
then again, none of his other antics ever involved blowing a cia agent's cover.
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 19:38 |
mundhra:
vlad:"ahhh don't listen to him listen to us and besides, his wifey got him the job, what a fag, can't trust him".
did this ever really happen with much vigor, or am i just forgetful?
i don't think it did happen with much vigor two years ago, aside from novak's column, because of the uproar over blowing his wife's cover. it sure started happening two weeks ago, though.
____________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx |
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 19:45 |
in a nytimes article in 2004, an "unnamed white house aide" is quoted as saying:
"The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."
____________________
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- Groucho Marx |
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent  SSHOLEPosts: 567 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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7/27/2005 at 23:07 |
Most people have never heard that quote and when it came out it freaked me out a little bit. People who are staging a coup use rhetoric like that.
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MadTurk
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 167 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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7/28/2005 at 01:14 |
vladtweano: logic is not a necessary component of the karl rove noise machine. all that's necessary is to seed a rumor, usually through a surrogate, and it gets amplified and repeated until it becomes truth. this has worked for him time and again.
-SNIP EXAMPLES-
very often this is done using "whisper campaigns" or "push polling". -SNIP-
that there are hard facts out there that contradict these things does not impede the machine. once the headline is out there being repeated, it becomes a truth.
I place full blame (or is it plame?) for this ability of Rove and other political machinists to turn bullshit into truth on the public. If people were more savvy to how the Truth can be identified (i.e . educated), then these assholes couldn't get away with their chicanery. Complicit with this inability to decipher truth from rumor is the news media, made up primarily of idiots who couldn't criticize their way out of a paper bag (cf. Stewart's tirade against the Crossfire weenies last December).
Come on, people, if you really want change, if you really want to stop being willingly deceived by these assholes in power, then get smart and wise up. Don't believe everything you read/see/hear in the news (this counts for NPR as well as the rest of those partisan hacks) and don't forget to check your hat at the desk when you enter Hotel "No More Self Deception Because I Have A Better Life Than 99% Of The People On Earth So Why Do I Have To Care About Politics Anyway?". The onus is now squarely on YOU, sorry reader.
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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7/28/2005 at 04:25 |
i think it's great that LS has its very own ATTACK PROFESSOR!
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DonQuixote
DARTH MENSES Posts: 641 Registered: 4/22/2005 Offline
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7/28/2005 at 05:24 |
I agree with madturk
the public is largely stupid
see - 2004 election results vs the debates
I am the bonecrusher
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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7/28/2005 at 13:23 |
an interesting scenario being floated about jailed nytimes reporter judith miller's role in all this. it's from arianna huffington, who is too snarky gossipy for my tastes, but she's well connected to the big media kewl kids.
____________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx |
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard SSHOLEPosts: 1690 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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7/29/2005 at 02:24 |
interesting, but it's a little twitchy. although occam's razor...
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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9/14/2005 at 14:26 |
four house committees are being forced to vote on resolutions demanding that the white house turn over records relating to the rove/plame matter. this is a political move (they're expected to be voted down) to make republicans go on the record about it.
raw story
john conyers
conyers: "We have no illusions that the Republicans in Congress are suddenly going to reverse course and start demanding accountability on this, or any other matter, that involves Bush Administration misconduct that is damaging to the nation. However, starting tommorrow, they will have to go on record and explain their votes defending criminal activity on the part of high ranking officials. That is the beginning of congressional accountability."
also, the grand jury investigating this is expected to announce indictments within the next month or so.
____________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx |
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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9/15/2005 at 14:19 |
as expected. over.
*edit* - justice department balks at turning over plame investigation records to congress.
[Edited on 16/9/2005 by vladtweano]
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"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx |
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard SSHOLEPosts: 1690 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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9/30/2005 at 13:11 |
After spending 12 weeks behind bars protecting a confidential source, New York Times reporter Judith Miller was released from jail after receiving permission from her source to provide evidence to a federal grand jury investigating the leak of a CIA operative's name.
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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9/30/2005 at 13:19 |
but wait! I thought she was holding out on principle like a shining inspiring beacon of the free press! whahoppen?
huffington, who i find kinda weird and icky, raises some good questions.
[Edited on 30/9/2005 by vladtweano]
____________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx |
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