Register | Member List | Search | FAQ | Stats

< Closing the Immigration Doors  
      <<      1      2    3    4      5     >>
Iran calls US Bluff > New Topic  Post Reply
Rove/Plame-O-Rama         9234 reads

Token Discordian


SSHOLE

Posts: 949
Registered: 8/6/2005
Offline

11/17/2005 at 11:04

mundhra: Woodward and editors at the Post refused to identify the official other than to say it was not I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff.

Heh, what if it turns out to have been Bush...

[Edited on 17/11/2005 by dreymers]






____________________
To the dog who has money, men say "My Lord Dog".
Reply With Quote Direct URL

dread pirate neckbeard


SSHOLE

Posts: 1634
Registered: 3/25/2002
Offline

11/17/2005 at 13:48

he wouldn't say who it was, but all roads point toward rove.






____________________
But the whole of modern so-called civilized existence is an attempt to deny reality insofar as it exists. When did Don last look at the stars, when did Norman last get soaked in a rainstorm?
Reply With Quote Direct URL

Token Discordian


SSHOLE

Posts: 949
Registered: 8/6/2005
Offline

11/17/2005 at 19:34

From today's Washington Post: The Woodward Bombshell:

Who's the source? "A senior administration official said that neither Mr. Bush himself, nor his chief of staff, Andrew H. Card Jr., nor his counselor, Dan Bartlett, was Mr. Woodward's source. So did spokesmen for former Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, former C.I.A. Director George J. Tenet and his deputy John E. McLaughlin."

I understand the principle of a journalist protecting their sources, but not in the course of a criminal investigation. To use an extreme example, suppose a journalist had an exclusive with a serial killer on the lam - shouldn't s/he be compelled to reveal information that would lead to their capture? But (I hear Woodward saying) then no one would talk to us anymore; tough shit - when there are conflicting principles, the effort to uncover a possible crime trumps the journalist's personal preferences.

So, why did he come forward - what made him change his mind? Something to do with the Post's business decisions? I don't know how much credence I want to give to an organization owned by the head moonie.

[Edited on 17/11/2005 by dreymers]






____________________
To the dog who has money, men say "My Lord Dog".
Reply With Quote Direct URL

dread pirate neckbeard


SSHOLE

Posts: 1634
Registered: 3/25/2002
Offline

11/17/2005 at 20:35

until woodward coughs it up, i have no choice other than to note the similarities between this and the wilson smear.

wilson is badmouthing our intel on wmds but what does he know? he got the job from his cia wife.

fitzgerald threw libby in jail but what does he know? he said libby was the first and he wasn't.






____________________
But the whole of modern so-called civilized existence is an attempt to deny reality insofar as it exists. When did Don last look at the stars, when did Norman last get soaked in a rainstorm?
Reply With Quote Direct URL

It's insane, this guy's taint


SSHOLE

Posts: 811
Registered: 8/25/2004
Offline

11/17/2005 at 20:54

I understand the principle of a journalist protecting their sources, but not in the course of a criminal investigation. To use an extreme example, suppose a journalist had an exclusive with a serial killer on the lam - shouldn't s/he be compelled to reveal information that would lead to their capture? But (I hear Woodward saying) then no one would talk to us anymore; tough shit - when there are conflicting principles, the effort to uncover a possible crime trumps the journalist's personal preferences.


If you value the free press, then you see the problem. No one will talk to a reporter if they know they're going to get turned in. "Unnamed sources" are sources at all because they can be anonymous. When there are conflicting principles, then you stick to your motherfucking principles. Plus the example you gave is bullshit; you do realize that other occupations have confidentiality rules? If someone is believed to committ a crime in the future or be harmful, they can report that to the police.
Reply With Quote Direct URL

DARTH MENSES




Posts: 517
Registered: 3/11/2002
Offline

11/17/2005 at 20:55

Unofficial signs point to Hadley, Bush's esteemed National Security Advisor (formerly Condi's job).

As for "he said libby was the first and he wasn't", this is laughably puerile. Fitzgerald said: “Mr. Libby was the first government official known to have told a reporter”. Olbermann jumped on this last night. Using this as some sort of defense of Libby makes no sense. Libby was indicted for lying to Fitzgerald, not for being the first (or second) official to talk to a reporter. The White House noise machine apparently has only one setting: BLARG






____________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx
Reply With Quote Direct URL

DARTH MENSES




Posts: 517
Registered: 3/11/2002
Offline

11/17/2005 at 21:04

nocal:
I understand the principle of a journalist protecting their sources, but not in the course of a criminal investigation. To use an extreme example, suppose a journalist had an exclusive with a serial killer on the lam - shouldn't s/he be compelled to reveal information that would lead to their capture? But (I hear Woodward saying) then no one would talk to us anymore; tough shit - when there are conflicting principles, the effort to uncover a possible crime trumps the journalist's personal preferences.


If you value the free press, then you see the problem. No one will talk to a reporter if they know they're going to get turned in. "Unnamed sources" are sources at all because they can be anonymous. When there are conflicting principles, then you stick to your motherfucking principles. Plus the example you gave is bullshit; you do realize that other occupations have confidentiality rules? If someone is believed to committ a crime in the future or be harmful, they can report that to the police.


I think nocal's right, but you're both missing the point as it applies to this mess. Libby wasn't leaking to Miller about a crime. Rather, his leak to Miller was the crime, and by all accounts (except hers, of course), she was complicit in it. She has a history of being a mouthpiece for this administration, like Novak. The only thing that saved Novak was that he sang.






____________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx
Reply With Quote Direct URL

Token Discordian


SSHOLE

Posts: 949
Registered: 8/6/2005
Offline

11/17/2005 at 23:41

nocal:
I understand the principle of a journalist protecting their sources, but not in the course of a criminal investigation. To use an extreme example, suppose a journalist had an exclusive with a serial killer on the lam - shouldn't s/he be compelled to reveal information that would lead to their capture? But (I hear Woodward saying) then no one would talk to us anymore; tough shit - when there are conflicting principles, the effort to uncover a possible crime trumps the journalist's personal preferences.


If you value the free press, then you see the problem. No one will talk to a reporter if they know they're going to get turned in. "Unnamed sources" are sources at all because they can be anonymous. When there are conflicting principles, then you stick to your motherfucking principles. Plus the example you gave is bullshit; you do realize that other occupations have confidentiality rules? If someone is believed to committ a crime in the future or be harmful, they can report that to the police.


The question of confidentiality is not a clear-cut as you imply: it is not a matter of maintaining a single absolute principle as you suggest - the journalist is also a citizen. Which one supports the greater public good: assisting in an ongoing investigation of a possible crime or protecting future possible information?

There's no clear answer; each answer must be taken in context - such is philosophy. In this case, though, I have to question Woodward's motives in coming forward at this point in the game.

vladtweano: I think nocal's right, but you're both missing the point as it applies to this mess. Libby wasn't leaking to Miller about a crime. Rather, his leak to Miller was the crime, and by all accounts (except hers, of course), she was complicit in it. She has a history of being a mouthpiece for this administration, like Novak. The only thing that saved Novak was that he sang.

Point taken - the journalists involved haven't been straight not because they are sticking to their principles as they say, but because they're trying to cover their own butts. However, by the same reasoning, journalists in this case giving up sources under subpoena is excusable because the sources are potentially implicit in the crime, instead of (as you point out) being whistleblowers.

[Edited on 18/11/2005 by dreymers]






____________________
To the dog who has money, men say "My Lord Dog".
Reply With Quote Direct URL

Bad Taste in your Mouth


SSHOLE

Posts: 4460
Registered: 3/8/2002
Offline

11/18/2005 at 00:17

dreymers: Which one supports the greater public good: assisting in an ongoing investigation of a possible crime or protecting future possible information?

No contest, in my head. Future possible information.



I have to question Woodward's motives in coming forward at this point in the game.

Yes.






____________________
slippedhole> I am on to you and your evil intentions. I am the true protector of this website and am willing to do battle with you.
Reply With Quote Direct URL

DARTH MENSES




Posts: 517
Registered: 3/11/2002
Offline

11/18/2005 at 01:01

vasudeva:
dreymers: I have to question Woodward's motives in coming forward at this point in the game.

Yes.


Apparently his source testified to Fitzgerald that he told Woodward. Woodward was staying quiet to avoid imperial entanglements. Then somebody's lawyers told the press that the source told Woodward, and it's all back in the news again.

With regard to Libby, this all amounts to nothing. He was indicted for lying to the grand jury. He's toast.

What this does indicate is that there was yet another active leaker (Rove, Libby and now this person). If it's Hadley, it now involves the president's office, the vp's office and the national security advisor (Rice, at the time).






____________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx
Reply With Quote Direct URL

Token Discordian


SSHOLE

Posts: 949
Registered: 8/6/2005
Offline

11/18/2005 at 01:18

Line 'em up and lynch 'em all!!!

(...anybody got any lynch?)






____________________
To the dog who has money, men say "My Lord Dog".
Reply With Quote Direct URL

Cynical_Malcontent


SSHOLE

Posts: 559
Registered: 4/29/2004
Offline

11/18/2005 at 04:03

I like this thread. Intelligent conversations are nice.

With regard to Libby, this all amounts to nothing. He was indicted for lying to the grand jury. He's toast.

What this does indicate is that there was yet another active leaker (Rove, Libby and now this person). If it's Hadley, it now involves the president's office, the vp's office and the national security advisor (Rice, at the time).


"Toast" being a highly relative term. With Iran contra you had what, 16 mid-level officials indicted and convicted for some pretty hard charges? How many were pardoned? All of them? Don't forget this is the recycled Reagan administration.

[Quote} The question of confidentiality is not a clear-cut as you imply: it is not a matter of maintaining a single absolute principle as you suggest - the journalist is also a citizen. Which one supports the greater public good: assisting in an ongoing investigation of a possible crime or protecting future possible information?

There's no clear answer; each answer must be taken in context - such is philosophy. In this case, though, I have to question Woodward's motives in coming forward at this point in the game.

YES. The specifics matter quite a lot in these games. More later on this.

[Edited on 18/11/2005 by AcheronDCS]






____________________
I'm an INTJ. This explains why I'm alternating between silence and judging you.
Reply With Quote Direct URL

dread pirate neckbeard


SSHOLE

Posts: 1634
Registered: 3/25/2002
Offline

11/18/2005 at 12:42

"mundhra is the first bank robber to use a nixon mask, and we are charging him with armed robbery"

nah, dude, somebody used a nixon mask before me.

EXONERAT'D!






____________________
But the whole of modern so-called civilized existence is an attempt to deny reality insofar as it exists. When did Don last look at the stars, when did Norman last get soaked in a rainstorm?
Reply With Quote Direct URL

Refusenik


SSHOLE

Posts: 484
Registered: 3/8/2002
Offline

11/18/2005 at 20:53








____________________
Reply With Quote Direct URL

Cynical_Malcontent


SSHOLE

Posts: 559
Registered: 4/29/2004
Offline

11/19/2005 at 04:55

^Very true

Unfortunately the I really don't think the situations are comparable in any shape or form.






____________________
I'm an INTJ. This explains why I'm alternating between silence and judging you.
Reply With Quote Direct URL

It's insane, this guy's taint


SSHOLE

Posts: 811
Registered: 8/25/2004
Offline

11/19/2005 at 05:04

Unfortunately the I really don't think the situations are comparable in any shape or form.


I think it boils down to subject matter. Of course, you can say, "Perjury is perjury, whether it's about BJs or about starting wars." Then again, "Murder is murder, whether it's manslaughter or cold-blooded and premeditated."
Reply With Quote Direct URL

dread pirate neckbeard


SSHOLE

Posts: 1634
Registered: 3/25/2002
Offline

11/19/2005 at 15:30

lying is lying whether it's stating you remembered to wash behind your ears or didn't meet with dick cheney to discuss energy matters






____________________
But the whole of modern so-called civilized existence is an attempt to deny reality insofar as it exists. When did Don last look at the stars, when did Norman last get soaked in a rainstorm?
Reply With Quote Direct URL

I'm assuming the position!


SSHOLE

Posts: 1901
Registered: 4/22/2004
Offline

11/19/2005 at 17:52


New Grand Jury






____________________
Easier to get into than a community college.
Reply With Quote Direct URL

SENATOR BABYHEAD




Posts: 159
Registered: 6/18/2003
Offline

12/15/2005 at 18:03

What about Bob?

Many of you probably saw this on cnn today. This may turn up the temperature on the white house for a few days... maybe force them to find a scapegoat, but probably just does more to enhance the masturbatory fantasies of liberals.

What's interesting is not so much Novak claims that Bush probably knows who the leaker is (I think this is a pretty sturdy limb to be stuck on), but that Novak, speaking at the quite conservative John Locke Foundation, encourages the public to "bug the president as to whether he should reveal who the source is."

I'm a little confused.
Novak is a self-serving cockwhistler, but this lesser deity of pus-buggery draws his power from the conservative base. So why, in effect, badmouth a (so-called) conservative president at a conservative function?

I guess I don't really know how to interpret his remarks, other than as further evidence that Bush is indeed becoming more isolated. I had thought that the buzz along that line was simply media incestuous media cluster fucking, as was speculated in Vas' Republican Nosedive thread, but maybe not...






____________________
Weebles wobble but they don't fall down
Reply With Quote Direct URL

Cynical_Malcontent


SSHOLE

Posts: 559
Registered: 4/29/2004
Offline

12/15/2005 at 18:12

Yeah I saw it too.

I guess the thrust of his argument is that if people are really pissed about this scandal they should be asking the CIC for answers-seems reasonable enough. I think what we're seeing is a widening break between Rove/Cheney/Rumsfeld and Bush/aides and maybe throw in a condoleeza. I'm interested to see where this goes.

I think it boils down to subject matter. Of course, you can say, "Perjury is perjury, whether it's about BJs or about starting wars." Then again, "Murder is murder, whether it's manslaughter or cold-blooded and premeditated."


The problem is that both sides were going for higher crimes but couldn't get them, so perjury is what they're left with. Invading a country and deceiving the domestic population are crimes-but not in our court system.

On 2005-12-15 at 12:15:46, AcheronDCS enjoyed furrysex
Reply With Quote Direct URL

SIR BABYHEAD




Posts: 85
Registered: 8/16/2003
Offline

12/17/2005 at 12:04

DYK? Dubya's Nickname for Rove is "Turd Blossom".






____________________
see you on the dark side of my ass
Reply With Quote Direct URL

Bad Taste in your Mouth


SSHOLE

Posts: 4460
Registered: 3/8/2002
Offline

2/1/2006 at 17:36

...






____________________
slippedhole> I am on to you and your evil intentions. I am the true protector of this website and am willing to do battle with you.
Reply With Quote Direct URL

dread pirate neckbeard


SSHOLE

Posts: 1634
Registered: 3/25/2002
Offline

2/1/2006 at 17:52

haven't heard anything lately, but i wish i would.






____________________
But the whole of modern so-called civilized existence is an attempt to deny reality insofar as it exists. When did Don last look at the stars, when did Norman last get soaked in a rainstorm?
Reply With Quote Direct URL

DARTH MENSES




Posts: 517
Registered: 3/11/2002
Offline

2/1/2006 at 20:26

i'm yr huckleberry

Here's the NY Daily News item on this.

On 2006-02-01 at 15:06:54, vladtweano enjoyed furrysex






____________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx
Reply With Quote Direct URL

DARTH MENSES




Posts: 517
Registered: 3/11/2002
Offline

2/2/2006 at 14:21

An interesting (but admittedly partisan) analysis of the latest revelations.

Here's another.






____________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx
Reply With Quote Direct URL

DARTH MENSES




Posts: 517
Registered: 3/11/2002
Offline

2/3/2006 at 01:26

The CIA told Cheney & Libby in June 2003 that the Niger uranium thing was bunk. They went ahead with their smear campaign.






____________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx
Reply With Quote Direct URL

Token Discordian


SSHOLE

Posts: 949
Registered: 8/6/2005
Offline

2/3/2006 at 03:10

Around the same time, Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove and at least one other senior Bush administration official leaked information to a number of journalists about Plame's CIA employment and her role in recommending her husband for the Niger mission.

So who's the mystery man?






____________________
To the dog who has money, men say "My Lord Dog".
Reply With Quote Direct URL

DARTH MENSES




Posts: 517
Registered: 3/11/2002
Offline

2/3/2006 at 03:42

Probably Hadley.






____________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx
Reply With Quote Direct URL

DARTH MENSES




Posts: 517
Registered: 3/11/2002
Offline

2/3/2006 at 13:35

Raw Story digs into some new information revealed by Libby's court filings. The final two paragraphs are of particular interest.

Libby's trial scheduled for Jan. 07.

On 2006-02-03 at 09:15:38, vladtweano enjoyed furrysex






____________________
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx
Reply With Quote Direct URL

* b0bo has quit IRC ('Exit')


SSHOLE

Posts: 1120
Registered: 3/19/2002
Offline

2/4/2006 at 02:02

Deciphering Libby's handwritten notes posed a challenge to the prosecution, Wells said.

"We're trying to work something out where Mr. Libby can help them read his notes," he said.


I'd imagine when a grown man writes with crayola crayons it would be tough to decipher.

BUSHSUXS....UPROAR......HIGHPRIESTOFBUSHSUXORS...






____________________
" I have never understood the female capacity to avoid a direct answer to any question." ~Spock~
Reply With Quote Direct URL
< Closing the Immigration Doors  
      <<      1      2    3    4      5     >>
Iran calls US Bluff > New Topic  Post Reply


Powered by XForum 1.6n by Trollix Software
original script by xmb


But dudes, she's spreading her juicy legs. -- tantrum