jwalker
Token Discordian  SSHOLEPosts: 949 Registered: 8/6/2005 Offline
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11/17/2005 at 11:04 |
mundhra: Woodward and editors at the Post refused to identify the official other than to say it was not I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff.
Heh, what if it turns out to have been Bush...
[Edited on 17/11/2005 by dreymers]
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard  SSHOLEPosts: 1634 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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11/17/2005 at 13:48 |
he wouldn't say who it was, but all roads point toward rove.
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jwalker
Token Discordian  SSHOLEPosts: 949 Registered: 8/6/2005 Offline
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11/17/2005 at 19:34 |
From today's Washington Post: The Woodward Bombshell:
Who's the source? "A senior administration official said that neither Mr. Bush himself, nor his chief of staff, Andrew H. Card Jr., nor his counselor, Dan Bartlett, was Mr. Woodward's source. So did spokesmen for former Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, former C.I.A. Director George J. Tenet and his deputy John E. McLaughlin."
I understand the principle of a journalist protecting their sources, but not in the course of a criminal investigation. To use an extreme example, suppose a journalist had an exclusive with a serial killer on the lam - shouldn't s/he be compelled to reveal information that would lead to their capture? But (I hear Woodward saying) then no one would talk to us anymore; tough shit - when there are conflicting principles, the effort to uncover a possible crime trumps the journalist's personal preferences.
So, why did he come forward - what made him change his mind? Something to do with the Post's business decisions? I don't know how much credence I want to give to an organization owned by the head moonie.
[Edited on 17/11/2005 by dreymers]
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard  SSHOLEPosts: 1634 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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11/17/2005 at 20:35 |
until woodward coughs it up, i have no choice other than to note the similarities between this and the wilson smear.
wilson is badmouthing our intel on wmds but what does he know? he got the job from his cia wife.
fitzgerald threw libby in jail but what does he know? he said libby was the first and he wasn't.
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint  SSHOLEPosts: 811 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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11/17/2005 at 20:54 |
I understand the principle of a journalist protecting their sources, but not in the course of a criminal investigation. To use an extreme example, suppose a journalist had an exclusive with a serial killer on the lam - shouldn't s/he be compelled to reveal information that would lead to their capture? But (I hear Woodward saying) then no one would talk to us anymore; tough shit - when there are conflicting principles, the effort to uncover a possible crime trumps the journalist's personal preferences.
If you value the free press, then you see the problem. No one will talk to a reporter if they know they're going to get turned in. "Unnamed sources" are sources at all because they can be anonymous. When there are conflicting principles, then you stick to your motherfucking principles. Plus the example you gave is bullshit; you do realize that other occupations have confidentiality rules? If someone is believed to committ a crime in the future or be harmful, they can report that to the police. |
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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11/17/2005 at 20:55 |
Unofficial signs point to Hadley, Bush's esteemed National Security Advisor (formerly Condi's job).
As for "he said libby was the first and he wasn't", this is laughably puerile. Fitzgerald said: “Mr. Libby was the first government official known to have told a reporter”. Olbermann jumped on this last night. Using this as some sort of defense of Libby makes no sense. Libby was indicted for lying to Fitzgerald, not for being the first (or second) official to talk to a reporter. The White House noise machine apparently has only one setting: BLARG
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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11/17/2005 at 21:04 |
nocal: I understand the principle of a journalist protecting their sources, but not in the course of a criminal investigation. To use an extreme example, suppose a journalist had an exclusive with a serial killer on the lam - shouldn't s/he be compelled to reveal information that would lead to their capture? But (I hear Woodward saying) then no one would talk to us anymore; tough shit - when there are conflicting principles, the effort to uncover a possible crime trumps the journalist's personal preferences.
If you value the free press, then you see the problem. No one will talk to a reporter if they know they're going to get turned in. "Unnamed sources" are sources at all because they can be anonymous. When there are conflicting principles, then you stick to your motherfucking principles. Plus the example you gave is bullshit; you do realize that other occupations have confidentiality rules? If someone is believed to committ a crime in the future or be harmful, they can report that to the police.
I think nocal's right, but you're both missing the point as it applies to this mess. Libby wasn't leaking to Miller about a crime. Rather, his leak to Miller was the crime, and by all accounts (except hers, of course), she was complicit in it. She has a history of being a mouthpiece for this administration, like Novak. The only thing that saved Novak was that he sang.
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jwalker
Token Discordian  SSHOLEPosts: 949 Registered: 8/6/2005 Offline
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11/17/2005 at 23:41 |
nocal: I understand the principle of a journalist protecting their sources, but not in the course of a criminal investigation. To use an extreme example, suppose a journalist had an exclusive with a serial killer on the lam - shouldn't s/he be compelled to reveal information that would lead to their capture? But (I hear Woodward saying) then no one would talk to us anymore; tough shit - when there are conflicting principles, the effort to uncover a possible crime trumps the journalist's personal preferences.
If you value the free press, then you see the problem. No one will talk to a reporter if they know they're going to get turned in. "Unnamed sources" are sources at all because they can be anonymous. When there are conflicting principles, then you stick to your motherfucking principles. Plus the example you gave is bullshit; you do realize that other occupations have confidentiality rules? If someone is believed to committ a crime in the future or be harmful, they can report that to the police.
The question of confidentiality is not a clear-cut as you imply: it is not a matter of maintaining a single absolute principle as you suggest - the journalist is also a citizen. Which one supports the greater public good: assisting in an ongoing investigation of a possible crime or protecting future possible information?
There's no clear answer; each answer must be taken in context - such is philosophy. In this case, though, I have to question Woodward's motives in coming forward at this point in the game.
vladtweano: I think nocal's right, but you're both missing the point as it applies to this mess. Libby wasn't leaking to Miller about a crime. Rather, his leak to Miller was the crime, and by all accounts (except hers, of course), she was complicit in it. She has a history of being a mouthpiece for this administration, like Novak. The only thing that saved Novak was that he sang.
Point taken - the journalists involved haven't been straight not because they are sticking to their principles as they say, but because they're trying to cover their own butts. However, by the same reasoning, journalists in this case giving up sources under subpoena is excusable because the sources are potentially implicit in the crime, instead of (as you point out) being whistleblowers.
[Edited on 18/11/2005 by dreymers]
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vasudeva
Bad Taste in your Mouth  SSHOLEPosts: 4460 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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11/18/2005 at 00:17 |
dreymers: Which one supports the greater public good: assisting in an ongoing investigation of a possible crime or protecting future possible information?
No contest, in my head. Future possible information.
I have to question Woodward's motives in coming forward at this point in the game.
Yes.
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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11/18/2005 at 01:01 |
vasudeva: dreymers: I have to question Woodward's motives in coming forward at this point in the game.
Yes.
Apparently his source testified to Fitzgerald that he told Woodward. Woodward was staying quiet to avoid imperial entanglements. Then somebody's lawyers told the press that the source told Woodward, and it's all back in the news again.
With regard to Libby, this all amounts to nothing. He was indicted for lying to the grand jury. He's toast.
What this does indicate is that there was yet another active leaker (Rove, Libby and now this person). If it's Hadley, it now involves the president's office, the vp's office and the national security advisor (Rice, at the time).
____________________ "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
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jwalker
Token Discordian  SSHOLEPosts: 949 Registered: 8/6/2005 Offline
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11/18/2005 at 01:18 |
Line 'em up and lynch 'em all!!!
(...anybody got any lynch?)
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent  SSHOLEPosts: 559 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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11/18/2005 at 04:03 |
I like this thread. Intelligent conversations are nice.
With regard to Libby, this all amounts to nothing. He was indicted for lying to the grand jury. He's toast.
What this does indicate is that there was yet another active leaker (Rove, Libby and now this person). If it's Hadley, it now involves the president's office, the vp's office and the national security advisor (Rice, at the time).
"Toast" being a highly relative term. With Iran contra you had what, 16 mid-level officials indicted and convicted for some pretty hard charges? How many were pardoned? All of them? Don't forget this is the recycled Reagan administration.
[Quote} The question of confidentiality is not a clear-cut as you imply: it is not a matter of maintaining a single absolute principle as you suggest - the journalist is also a citizen. Which one supports the greater public good: assisting in an ongoing investigation of a possible crime or protecting future possible information?
There's no clear answer; each answer must be taken in context - such is philosophy. In this case, though, I have to question Woodward's motives in coming forward at this point in the game.
YES. The specifics matter quite a lot in these games. More later on this.
[Edited on 18/11/2005 by AcheronDCS]
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard  SSHOLEPosts: 1634 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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11/18/2005 at 12:42 |
"mundhra is the first bank robber to use a nixon mask, and we are charging him with armed robbery"
nah, dude, somebody used a nixon mask before me.
EXONERAT'D!
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LOki
Refusenik  SSHOLEPosts: 484 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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11/18/2005 at 20:53 |

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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent  SSHOLEPosts: 559 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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11/19/2005 at 04:55 |
^Very true
Unfortunately the I really don't think the situations are comparable in any shape or form.
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint  SSHOLEPosts: 811 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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11/19/2005 at 05:04 |
Unfortunately the I really don't think the situations are comparable in any shape or form.
I think it boils down to subject matter. Of course, you can say, "Perjury is perjury, whether it's about BJs or about starting wars." Then again, "Murder is murder, whether it's manslaughter or cold-blooded and premeditated." |
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard  SSHOLEPosts: 1634 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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11/19/2005 at 15:30 |
lying is lying whether it's stating you remembered to wash behind your ears or didn't meet with dick cheney to discuss energy matters
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Dumbskull
I'm assuming the position!  SSHOLEPosts: 1901 Registered: 4/22/2004 Offline
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11/19/2005 at 17:52 |
New Grand Jury
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Pchimp
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 159 Registered: 6/18/2003 Offline
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12/15/2005 at 18:03 |
What about Bob?
Many of you probably saw this on cnn today. This may turn up the temperature on the white house for a few days... maybe force them to find a scapegoat, but probably just does more to enhance the masturbatory fantasies of liberals.
What's interesting is not so much Novak claims that Bush probably knows who the leaker is (I think this is a pretty sturdy limb to be stuck on), but that Novak, speaking at the quite conservative John Locke Foundation, encourages the public to "bug the president as to whether he should reveal who the source is."
I'm a little confused.
Novak is a self-serving cockwhistler, but this lesser deity of pus-buggery draws his power from the conservative base. So why, in effect, badmouth a (so-called) conservative president at a conservative function?
I guess I don't really know how to interpret his remarks, other than as further evidence that Bush is indeed becoming more isolated. I had thought that the buzz along that line was simply media incestuous media cluster fucking, as was speculated in Vas' Republican Nosedive thread, but maybe not...
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent  SSHOLEPosts: 559 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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12/15/2005 at 18:12 |
Yeah I saw it too.
I guess the thrust of his argument is that if people are really pissed about this scandal they should be asking the CIC for answers-seems reasonable enough. I think what we're seeing is a widening break between Rove/Cheney/Rumsfeld and Bush/aides and maybe throw in a condoleeza. I'm interested to see where this goes.
I think it boils down to subject matter. Of course, you can say, "Perjury is perjury, whether it's about BJs or about starting wars." Then again, "Murder is murder, whether it's manslaughter or cold-blooded and premeditated."
The problem is that both sides were going for higher crimes but couldn't get them, so perjury is what they're left with. Invading a country and deceiving the domestic population are crimes-but not in our court system.
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pumpkinass_69_69_69
SIR BABYHEAD  Posts: 85 Registered: 8/16/2003 Offline
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12/17/2005 at 12:04 |
DYK? Dubya's Nickname for Rove is "Turd Blossom".
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vasudeva
Bad Taste in your Mouth  SSHOLEPosts: 4460 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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2/1/2006 at 17:36 |
...
____________________ slippedhole> I am on to you and your evil intentions. I am the true protector of this website and am willing to do battle with you. |
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard  SSHOLEPosts: 1634 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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2/1/2006 at 17:52 |
haven't heard anything lately, but i wish i would.
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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2/1/2006 at 20:26 |
i'm yr huckleberry
Here's the NY Daily News item on this.
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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2/2/2006 at 14:21 |
An interesting (but admittedly partisan) analysis of the latest revelations.
Here's another.
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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2/3/2006 at 01:26 |
The CIA told Cheney & Libby in June 2003 that the Niger uranium thing was bunk. They went ahead with their smear campaign.
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jwalker
Token Discordian  SSHOLEPosts: 949 Registered: 8/6/2005 Offline
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2/3/2006 at 03:10 |
Around the same time, Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove and at least one other senior Bush administration official leaked information to a number of journalists about Plame's CIA employment and her role in recommending her husband for the Niger mission.
So who's the mystery man?
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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2/3/2006 at 03:42 |
Probably Hadley.
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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2/3/2006 at 13:35 |
Raw Story digs into some new information revealed by Libby's court filings. The final two paragraphs are of particular interest.
Libby's trial scheduled for Jan. 07.
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____________________ "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
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HOBO
* b0bo has quit IRC ('Exit')  SSHOLEPosts: 1120 Registered: 3/19/2002 Offline
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2/4/2006 at 02:02 |
Deciphering Libby's handwritten notes posed a challenge to the prosecution, Wells said.
"We're trying to work something out where Mr. Libby can help them read his notes," he said.
I'd imagine when a grown man writes with crayola crayons it would be tough to decipher.
BUSHSUXS....UPROAR......HIGHPRIESTOFBUSHSUXORS...
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