nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint   SSHOLE |
Posts: 833 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 16:40 |
I'm going to shamelessly rip off MadTurk, who in the President Bush's Presidential Speech 6/28 thread posted the following link:
House Approves Move to Outlaw Flag Burning
Personally, I have a big fucking problem with this kind of a limit on freedom of speech. I feel like the general slant on Linkswarm will be heavily on my side. But I am curious how people feel about it.
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SexNinja
the illest nigga  SSHOLEPosts: 1546 Registered: 10/28/2007 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 16:48 |
It's a piece of cloth. A symbol. You can't hurt a country or the ideals it stands for by destroying its symbol(s) unless the ideals are weak and ineffective, like Jew hats.
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HAMFIGHTER> He shrugged, and started finishing himself off, on my breasts, while I was crying. |
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vasudeva
Bad Taste in your Mouth  SSHOLEPosts: 4618 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 16:59 |
I feel like it's chock-full of delicious irony, as you may have guessed.
Flag burning is in pretty bad taste, and it's kind of an empty, moronic gesture, as far as I can tell (EDIT: LOL LIKE JEW HATS).
The idiocy of exempting a symbol of free speech from being subject to the very freedoms it stands for is incredible.
I'd be happy to hoot and holler at the idea if I was less dumbfounded that so many people could actually consider such a law worthwhile. Even beyond the self-defeating thrust of it, how is this an important motion to make right now? Are people dying or losing jobs because a couple over-zealous protestors are burning some hunks of cloth?
[Edited on 6/29/2005 by vasudeva]
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slippedhole> I am on to you and your evil intentions. I am the true protector of this website and am willing to do battle with you. |
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Steel
If you want to keep your tongue, don't lick me in the Winter!  SSHOLEPosts: 518 Registered: 10/14/2004 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 17:00 |
I burn big piles of Maple Leaves every fall... I've never been arrested for it! |
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fastlane
Zombie scream style  SSHOLEPosts: 725 Registered: 2/7/2004 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 17:06 |
What would be your conditions for burning a flag of your country? I have owned several flags over the years, stars and stripes, confederate, skull and bones, etc and have never felt the urge to burn them.
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I love the sound of silence. It gives me something else to break. |
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barch97
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 588 Registered: 6/18/2003 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 17:20 |
I'm kinda curious how such a rule is enforced. say for example I choose to burn a flag in the pivacy of my home and one of my neighbors sees the tricolor smoke of charred americanism and calls the fire dept. if they can identify the remains of the flag six hours later when they actually show up... am I immediately taken into custody and charged with terrorism?
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint SSHOLEPosts: 833 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 17:56 |
I'm kinda curious how such a rule is enforced. say for example I choose to burn a flag in the pivacy of my home and one of my neighbors sees the tricolor smoke of charred americanism and calls the fire dept. if they can identify the remains of the flag six hours later when they actually show up... am I immediately taken into custody and charged with terrorism?
I'm curious whether I can burn a Ford ad featuring the American flag, or whether I can burn one of those small hand-held ones. Can I burn a yellow magnet ribbon?
Flag burning is in pretty bad taste, and it's kind of an empty, moronic gesture, as far as I can tell (EDIT: LOL LIKE JEW HATS).
That is true; I've often wondered why people are actually burning flags and if, in fact, they have any fuking idea why it is they are doing it.
Although whether it's in bad taste, I'm not sure I would agree. It's precisely because I don't care. I don't care what symbols people desecrate. You can shit all over my picture and burn it, because it isn't me. I won't be offended. I guess this is why I can't see how this could ever be outlawed. |
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 18:07 |
ah goody, the flag-burning amendment again. starting to smell like an election year already, and what a convenient distraction from silly old wars and tanking approval ratings.
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"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
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Crackalackin
DARTH MENSES Posts: 421 Registered: 7/19/2004 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 18:25 |
Yup, I once knew a country where damaging its flag accidentally was a misdemeanor punishable by 1-2 years of public works (think street sweeping and sewage clearing) ; intentionally damaging a flag as a sign of protest was a felony punishable by 3-5 years of jail and egregious incidents were eligible for death penalty.
The country's name was the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics, it was severely communist and ruled with an iron grip of a dictatorial, nationalistic government.
I know where this road leads. Hopefully, we may turn at any of the next few intersections before it becomes a tunnel. |
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MadTurk
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 167 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 18:26 |
nocal: I don't care what symbols people desecrate. You can shit all over my picture and burn it, because it isn't me. I won't be offended. I guess this is why I can't see how this could ever be outlawed.
This is where you are wrong. While self and symbol are clearly different entities, they intertwine quite significantly. Think about the clothes/jewelry you wear or the style of your hair, for instance. These tangible phenoms tie you to a culture (or sub-culture) which states quite clearly other aspects, attitudes, opinions, ideas and characteristics of the self. And these are the simplest and most oblique symbols. The language you use is even more taken for granted, as are symbols of nation and state (the flag, y0). This is in fact the basis of the new science of memetics: that ideas have lives of their own, and they are lived through human brains (consisting of the tangible neuronal conduits exchanging chemical/electric impulses and stimulating consciousness to action).
As a value-laden symbol, the intangible (and contested) values of the flag represent what action one might take to demonstrate or defend such values. In the Venn diagram of life, symbols such as the flag are inextricably linked to our selves and our actions.
This, however, is not the point of the debate. The point is that when our actions are legislatively governed, we become less free. Thus, to govern against any action for which the flag (and the other founding natinal documents - the Constitution, DoI, or Bill of Rights) stands as a clear contradiction to the meaning of the flag and thus signals a transition in the state of the nation to a more authoritative government.
This is bad.
So, instead of setting off fireworks this 4th, why don't we all just burn a flag instead! It'll show your neighbors what a REAL PATRIOT you are!
[Edited on 6/29/2005 by MadTurk]
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Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras. |
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 18:47 |
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"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx |
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint SSHOLEPosts: 833 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 19:09 |
MadTurk:
WORDS
Well in this case, the symbols are copies. If someone wanted to burn the original Besty Ross flag or something, I'd be pissed. But if you want to burn a Korean-made flag that just got made, then shit, what does it matter? And to me, it's the same for most symbols (ie, I don't want you to burn MY shirt or shit on MY shoes, but exact replicas? I could care less). And the way I feel about symbols and their relation to memes is that I keep those memes in my head. You can fuck every symbol I know and love, but I keep my ideals and all that bullshit up in my own neurons.
But then, I do agree totally that it makes us less free. I'd like it if the government backed off in a number of ways. |
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vasudeva
Bad Taste in your Mouth SSHOLEPosts: 4618 Registered: 3/8/2002 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 19:57 |
MadTurk: WORDS
SYLLOGISTIC MIND TRAP! LOOK AWAY! IT'S LIKE A BASILISK (ALLEDGIDLY)
vladtweano:
BEST.
THING.
EVAR!
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slippedhole> I am on to you and your evil intentions. I am the true protector of this website and am willing to do battle with you. |
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard  SSHOLEPosts: 1690 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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6/29/2005 at 20:08 |
turk, i for one am glad you started posting more.
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Amero and New World Order: the libertarian version of the rapture. |
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MadTurk
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 167 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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6/30/2005 at 00:04  |
Thank ye gods for summer vaca. Unfortunately I'm teaching a summer session course and developing a virtual tour for the college over the next couple months, so my frequency will likely wane.
Get your fill of me now, sweet punkins, 'cause it ain't gwine to last long (unless you start sending money, of course, c/o vas).
- humpadillo turkmenistan
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Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras. |
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Wotak
You + Fava Beans = Yum Got Textwar? SSHOLEPosts: 932 Registered: 5/27/2005 Offline
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6/30/2005 at 00:52 |
A classic case of having your cake and eating it, too.
Freedom of speech and expression isn't freedom of speech and expression once you start crossing out shit with a red marker just because it offends a crowd of flag wavers. That goes for any state that claims to support freedom... including America; the state of hypocrisy.
"A free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular."
-Adlai E. Stevenson Jr. 1952, Speech in Detroit
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting."
-Alan Dean Foster, To the Vanishing Point
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
-Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart
Nuff said.
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"5. Heather shaves her balls." --Dumbskull |
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Wotak
You + Fava Beans = Yum Got Textwar?SSHOLEPosts: 932 Registered: 5/27/2005 Offline
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6/30/2005 at 00:54 |
Jeeze, I am haunted by tulips...
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"5. Heather shaves her balls." --Dumbskull |
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Acidburn
I am El Chupacabra  SSHOLEPosts: 809 Registered: 8/1/2004 Offline
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6/30/2005 at 01:20 |
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No you can't have my rights. I'm not through with them!
You got Down Syndrome so bad you probably have up,left and right too.
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(='.'=)
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This is Rabbit. and it kills everyday.
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BeachGoat
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 431 Registered: 10/31/2003 Offline
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6/30/2005 at 08:51 |
I Am an American. I love my Country. I love what it Is and what it Stands For. I used to fly my flag with pride every day, large and bright, from the front of my house. There was no reason for me to be ashamed for the actions of my Government, because I am a part of the very people who form it.
Then came Bush. I still flew my flag, but I made my voice and opinion loud and clear. After all, it is still my Country, and a bad leader does not discount the Good and True nature of the Nation, only enfeebles the path for a few years. Some days, I flew it at half mast to show my disgust for the passing of Democracy, others for the murder of due process.
September 11th; just a crisis, not the end of the World. Certainly not the End of the Constituion or the Rights promised by it. Suddenly, a group of anarchist radicals start a series of evil acts to overthrow our Great Nation so they can rule with impunity for their own individual profit at the expense of the poor and elderly. As the Vioce of the People was smother by the Voice of Facisism, I took down my flag. By November, the American flag was no longer a symbol of My Country, but a radical facist hate banner, like a swazstika.
I had hoped to start flying my flag again at the impeachment announcement of this hysterical dictator, but since all legal process and logic has been suspended, that's more than can be hoped for. Over half of the nation is scared and against him, but afraid to speak for acts of retribution. Death is at our doorstep as Bush taunts those ready to destroy us.
My plan at this point is to burn my falg at the announcement of the law prohibiting of doing so. This will mark the End of America for me. How we went from a free and true Nation to Hitler's Germany before my eyes is still a wonder, but I have seen it, and as you agrue and debate, I vomit & cry, wrapped in despair, unable to hope, or even try to explain to my children, or yours.
God Damn Bush to Hell
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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6/30/2005 at 12:56 |
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"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx |
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard SSHOLEPosts: 1690 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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6/30/2005 at 13:53 |
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Amero and New World Order: the libertarian version of the rapture. |
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Gothmog
busy lil bee bzz bzz bzz!  SSHOLEPosts: 214 Registered: 12/12/2003 Offline
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6/30/2005 at 14:40 |
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"There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line." - Oscar Levant |
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vladtweano
DARTH MENSES Posts: 517 Registered: 3/11/2002 Offline
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6/30/2005 at 15:47 |
thanks gothmog. i will never get over just how completely and hopelessly rob liefeld chugs the spiral cock of suck. nice tits, cap'n.
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"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others."
- Groucho Marx |
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Heather
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 738 Registered: 11/24/2004 Offline
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7/1/2005 at 14:04 |
crackalackin:Beautifully crafted physic friends hotline glimpse of the future
Still, I’m reeling at the revelation of your ethnicity, sir.
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RoozleRose
Tender vittles  Posts: 48 Registered: 1/11/2005 Offline
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7/2/2005 at 18:06 |
I was born in Washington DC. My father was a career Air Force pilot who died while on active duty. The Star-Spangled Banner makes me cry. Despite my hippie inclinations, I have always loved my country while reserving the right to disagree with its government. Until now. I've never been so ashamed to be an American. This administration is so corrupt, dishonest, and appallingly remorseless in its errors of judgement, that I understand why people want to burn flags. I can't bring myself to do it, but I won't judge another for making that choice. IMPEACH BUSH NOW!!!
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Life is a garden.....Dig it! |
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