nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint   SSHOLE |
Posts: 833 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 16:33 |
I was going to put this in the comments section of the article on the killer who was put to death in CA, but I started to make it too long. So I'm putting in here my arguments against capital punishment. I know this is possibly a tired subject, but hey, it's pertinent.
1) Capital Punishment is not a deterrent in that it doesn't lower crime rates. In fact, in other countries that have had the death penalty and later abolished it, crime rates declined slightly. Think of it this way: does a criminal stop and think, "If I kill this guy after I rob him, am I going to get life in a federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison, or the death penalty?"
2) Prisons were once about reform and not incarceration. Maybe that's not possible, maybe we're not using the right methods, who really knows. On this point, some people would rather have incarceration anyway.
3) Sometimes the wrong people are executed. As a psych student, we have learned that witnesses to crimes are almost universally wrong in identifying a suspect. Often the witnesses will identify the same wrong man in a line-up. DNA evidence has proven the innocence of quite a few men on death row. Now I'm not saying that everyone on death row is innocent or some shit like that, but is it worth killing hundreds of criminals if you kill even one innocent man? In my opinion no, although one can disagree with that.
4) The appeals process costs more than imprisonment for life. One might say, "Well that's why we should get rid of the appeals process!" Well even criminals deserve a right to a fair trial, and not all accused are guilty.
And personally, the arguments of "What if someone raped your daughter/son/cat and murdered them?!?!?!" I'd get more joy out of knowing that they rot in a prison where prisoners rape them, where they don't see the outside, where they get out of a cramped cell for an hour a day. And conversely, I would rather die than go to prison, and hence I would want the death penalty because dying is easier than living in prison forever. I know that some people say that prisons are veritable country clubs where prisoners watch television, play golf, and fuck playboy playmates, but prison is a nasty shithole of violence, at least for any kind of serious offenders.
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ghostrider
liberal exit  SSHOLEPosts: 2525 Registered: 7/29/2004 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 16:41 |
Death penalty has been used in places like Texas almost exclusively to execute black people. There are 25 people (that I'm aware of) who have been wrongly executed since 1900. I am still pro death-penalty though. I don't care if it's a deterrent or not. People like Darell Rich don't deserve to live( he was a California murderer with which I have an unfortunate connection). I see both sides of this argument. It's a tough one.
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wolfer
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 483 Registered: 12/1/2003 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 16:51 |
Hey NoCal did you know this guy was guilty and did 7 years for a previous murder. He was released after he did his 7 years for MURDER. He killed someone and was walking 7 years later. Then he ended up killing 2 more people. If this man was put to sleep the first time. There would be 2 people still alive today. My tax dollars goes to the 600 men and woman on death row. Many have been there for over 20 years. You kill you you get killed. Point done.
[Edited on 20/1/2005 by wolfer]
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint SSHOLEPosts: 833 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 16:55 |
Well then that means that the system failed, in that he was not rehabilitated/incarcerated well enough. Your logic says off him and he wouldn't have killed, mine says keep him in jail and you get the same outcome except he has to live in a shithole for about 40 years. |
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wolfer
DARTH MENSES Posts: 483 Registered: 12/1/2003 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 17:00 |
but yousr and my tax dollars are keeping clothes on his back put food in his mouth. giving him a nice warm place to stay when its already over packed with your rappist and thiefs and whatever. If we just throw everybody in the cell do you know our tax dollars will have to build many many more prisons and jails. Hey you do the crime you do the time. Kill and be killed
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Pchimp
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 159 Registered: 6/18/2003 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 17:08 |
I'm mostly in agreement, but am interested to hear some clarification of some of your points.
1) Absolutely. I can't count how many times I've tried to convince pro-death people that heinous felons are not doing a detailed risk/benefit analysis when considering whether or not to stab some poor sap five times or fifty.
2.a) When and where were they about reform? It's quite arguable that they should be about reform, but I'm not aware of any era where such a system was actually practiced.
2.b) What about felons who evidence suggests are incapable of reform? Pedophiles get the most attention here, but they are by no means the only ones that fall into this camp.
3) Uh-huh. I know there are efforts in some places, though, to put more rigorous criteria in place for death-penalty decisions, such as requiring DNA evidence or 3 eye-witnesses. Difficult to put into practice a system that attempts infallibility, though.
4.a) Of course, everyone should have a right to fair trial; but it seems to me that when the appeals routinely cost more than housing/feeding/guarding the felon for 50+ years, something is systemically wrong with the process. I'm fairly ignorant of the specifics of the appeals process, and I'm sure they vary significantly by state, but I find it hard to believe that a system whose inefficiencies are so easily abused does any service to justice. It would be interesting to know how many felons have their sentences overturned or commuted at each stage of the process? Do you know of any data regarding this?
4.b) I often hear that the cost of death row appeals cost more than enforcing life imprisonment. Do these numbers take into account the inevitable appeals process that the inmate sentenced to life in prison will go through?
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard  SSHOLEPosts: 1690 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 17:08 |
so basically what you're saying, wolfer, is that i had better have 5 alibis available with a video record of my actions. always? |
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent  SSHOLEPosts: 567 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 17:08 |
I agree w/ nocal, but I'd take the argument to a more basic ground. I think its morally wrong for the state to take someone's life. Taking a life is wrong. Period. There isn't an addendum to the moral code that says "taking a life is wrong---unless they were a very bad person". It doesn't hold up.
Even if you do think the state has the right, surely the state doesn't have the right to take the life of an innocent person. There is always that chance, even in the cases that seem the most clear cut. A judicial system that has a statistical chance of taking an innocent life cannot stand. You can let a person out of prison if they're found to be innocent later, not so with DP. If the death penalty ever had a financial, moral, or strategic reasoning behind it, it doesn't anymore.
Well then that means that the system failed, in that he was not rehabilitated/incarcerated well enough
The system doesn't rehabilitate at all, as far as anyone can tell. For some it does. But its not the kind of institution that engenders repentance and rehabilitation.
[Edited on 20/1/2005 by AcheronDCS]
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent SSHOLEPosts: 567 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 17:14 |
I often hear that the cost of death row appeals cost more than enforcing life imprisonment. Do these numbers take into account the inevitable appeals process that the inmate sentenced to life in prison will go through?
From what I've read, yes, they do. But outside of that, sending millions of volts of electricity and expensive chemicals through inmates costs a fair amount too.
As for the price of keeping prisoners in prison, there is a lot of forced labor / programs etc. that can at least partially make up for the cost. (though at this point I think its becoming, like everything else state, a corporate slush-fund)
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wolfer
DARTH MENSES Posts: 483 Registered: 12/1/2003 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 17:37 |
What im saying is if your proven guilty. with witnesses and finger prints or been seen doing the job. Our tax dollars should not be waisted feeding and clothing these people maybe a five year limit for appeals or some thing but this is a waist of our tax dollars and prison room.
[Edited on 20/1/2005 by wolfer]
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barch97
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 588 Registered: 6/18/2003 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 17:57 |
thou shall not kill
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Pchimp
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 159 Registered: 6/18/2003 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 17:59 |
AcheronDCS: But outside of that, sending millions of volts of electricity and expensive chemicals through inmates costs a fair amount too.
If this is true, it's only because of outrageously inefficient bureaucratic waste. For less than $50 I can buy enough research grade varieties of the chemicals typically used (sodium thiopental and pancuronium bromide) to "humanely" execute many people. Shit, they use basically the same stuff at the humane society for putting down animals, often for free.
Your other points are well-taken. |
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dragonstaff
Too old to Rock and Roll...too young to die  SSHOLEPosts: 787 Registered: 8/19/2004 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 20:24 |
We do not have the death penalty here ( the last person to be executed in Australia was hanged in 1967) but it is a deterrent in a limited way. Not one executed criminal has re-offended, ever.
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent SSHOLEPosts: 567 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 20:34 |
If this is true, it's only because of outrageously inefficient bureaucratic waste. For less than $50 I can buy enough research grade varieties of the chemicals typically used (sodium thiopental and pancuronium bromide) to "humanely" execute many people. Shit, they use basically the same stuff at the humane society for putting down animals, often for free.
The amount of electricity adds up to a fair amount, as for the chemicals, in retrospect, probably not.
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ghostrider
liberal exit SSHOLEPosts: 2525 Registered: 7/29/2004 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 20:53 |
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I think you accidentally drew a hexapus.
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wolfer
DARTH MENSES Posts: 483 Registered: 12/1/2003 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 22:25 |
AcheronDCS:
If this is true, it's only because of outrageously inefficient bureaucratic waste. For less than $50 I can buy enough research grade varieties of the chemicals typically used (sodium thiopental and pancuronium bromide) to "humanely" execute many people. Shit, they use basically the same stuff at the humane society for putting down animals, often for free.
The amount of electricity adds up to a fair amount, as for the chemicals, in retrospect, probably not.
How much would a bullet to the head cost?
[Edited on 20/1/2005 by wolfer]
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mundhra
dread pirate neckbeard SSHOLEPosts: 1690 Registered: 3/25/2002 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 22:45 |
wolfer: since you're so gung-ho, how much would it cost for you to beat someone to death with your own hands?
GET OUT THERE AND MAKE A BETTAR WORLD.
[Edited on 20/1/2005 by mundhra] |
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LuckyLuciano
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 364 Registered: 9/7/2003 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 22:57 |
Back in the soviet union, the kgb would put a bullet in the back of a person's head and then charge the family of the recently deceased for the bullet. I always thought that was quite brutal, which is probably why I like it.
Its pretty obvious that both sides have a good argument. On the one hand, no one wants to pay taxes that will feed and clothe a convicted criminal. On the other hand, if you were in the place of some of these criminals, you would want a chance to plead your case.
We could always go with the "Running Man" style of justice where we put convicted criminals in an area and let them try and fight their way to freedom.
And its kinda funny that dragonstaff add his two cents about this topic because Australia was basically one huge prison for those who broke British law.
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wolfer
DARTH MENSES Posts: 483 Registered: 12/1/2003 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 23:21 |
mundhra: wolfer: since you're so gung-ho, how much would it cost for you to beat someone to death with your own hands?
GET OUT THERE AND MAKE A BETTAR WORLD.
[Edited on 20/1/2005 by mundhra]
How much did it cost a convicted murderer to kill his victim.? I have no sympathy for fuckin idiots that go out and rob and kill. I have plenty of times in my life been in a situation where a petty theft might have help me pay my bills that day but my conscience told me it was wrong and I thought of the consequences.
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BeachGoat
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 431 Registered: 10/31/2003 Offline
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1/20/2005 at 23:36 |
MORE! SOONER! NOW!
MY FUCKING TAXES! MY FUCKING BILL! MY FUCKING SAFETY!
I DON'T WAN'T TO SUPPORT THESE PIECES OF MURDEROURS SHIT ON MY NICKLE EVER!
FUCK THEM IN THE NECK! HAND ME THE KNIFE!
Please.
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dent
Slipping it into the wrong hole any chance I get  SSHOLEPosts: 917 Registered: 10/20/2004 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 00:01 |
Yeah, this is probably one of the top 5 most popular, but played-out topics on the planet. I will say the same thing I always say everytime someone asks me my opinion on this...
Does it feel good to breath? Sure it does. Does it feel good to have an orgasm? Sure it does. Does it feel good to have a full belly while laying down reading a good book? Damm right it does. Does it feel good to wake up from a nice pleasant dream in the morning? Of course.
These are some of the pleasures a person who has murdered someone else gets to experience while alive, wether in a cell or not. Kill the fucking cunt. I'm pro-death 120 percent. As a matter of fact, kill more of the mother fuckers.
[Edited on 21/1/2005 by dent]
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fastlane
Zombie scream style  SSHOLEPosts: 725 Registered: 2/7/2004 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 00:04 |
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ghostrider
liberal exit SSHOLEPosts: 2525 Registered: 7/29/2004 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 00:17 |
I leik Grandpa
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MstrLance ~
I think you accidentally drew a hexapus.
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint SSHOLEPosts: 833 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 00:49 |
These are some of the pleasures a person who has murdered someone else gets to experience while alive, wether in a cell or not.
I've heard this argument plenty of times before...and it's partly bullshit. If you believe that all life is a pleasureable experience just because one is living, you're wrong. Plenty of people hate their lives, and there is nothing wrong with them. Prison is horrible. I live pretty near San Quentin, and I know people that have been guards as well as the chaplain. If you think it's the least bit pleasureable to live in a prison, you are wrong. Shitty food, tiny cells, group showers with convicts, being let out of the cell for only one hour per day, threats of rape and death...or a quick death at the hands of some debilitating chemicals that supposedly cause little pain. If you want them to suffer, all the more reason to keep them in jail until they die of old age. |
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent SSHOLEPosts: 567 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 02:33 |
take some soc. classes about prison life, learn how much prison sucks. Plenty of people make horrible mistakes in their life, what prison does is make reform virtually impossible. Again, not 100%. But Prison, largely, becomes a sort of criminal college, you have a bunch of motherfuckers who know a lot, or a little about crime, and put them in a setting where they can't do much but do push-ups, talk about crime, and get assfucked. It is exactly the opposite of rehab. Its putting rats in a pen and scaring them to death for long periods of time. Getting a fat dick up your asshole isn't rehab for anybody.
And as long as you're talking about prisons sucking up your tax dollars, keep in mind that these prisons are creating jobs, and doing slave labor for all of us american citizens, giving, in theory, a big boost to the economy. Plus its keeping these people off the streets. Thats the argument anyway.
As for the "kill them all" mentality, in the context of a discussion on judicial systems, its a joke and it ain't that funny.
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LuckyLuciano
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 364 Registered: 9/7/2003 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 03:15 |
wolfer
I have no sympathy for fuckin idiots that go out and rob and kill. I have plenty of times in my life been in a situation where a petty theft might have help me pay my bills that day but my conscience told me it was wrong and I thought of the consequences.
Just because you listen to a voice in your head doesn't make your actions right. For example, the voices in my head tell me that this isn't candy land and morals don't matter; therefore, I take what I want because its survival of teh fittest.
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gotbeer
Tender vittles  Posts: 18 Registered: 1/15/2005 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 04:33  |
I say if anyone goes to prison execute them why spend tax dollars on fucking scum that can't cope with society kill them all ask questions later |
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RoozleRose
Tender vittles  Posts: 48 Registered: 1/11/2005 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 05:14 |
OK, they call it Death Row for a reason! These convicts who have brutally murdered innocent, helpless, and likely terrified victims, in unspeakable ways, need to DIE! It's too bad the execution methods used today are so humane. These people are not rehabilitatable. They have committed heinous, brutal crimes and were not sentenced to death because "oops, they messed up", or "gee, I won't ever do it again". These are hard-core violent offenders who cannot be cured.
A friend of mine from childhood, first grade through high school, is on California's Death Row @ San Quentin, and I had to testify for the defense in the penalty phase of his triple-murder trial after he had been found guilty. The jury still sentenced him to death, and I'm glad. He wasn't always a monster, but he totally deserves to die for the vile things he did to innocent girls.
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Evildigitz
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 143 Registered: 4/6/2004 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 09:26 |
Its this simple,
A person robs people or mugs people or steals a car, beats someone up - chances are, that person can be reformed - fixed - put right.
A person murders another person. Society cannot trust that person ever again - that person is a proven risk to humanity. That person must be executed. I dont believe in any form of painful execution, just give the injection that knocks them out for good.
I dont believe in prison as a form of _punishment_ for murderers because it's not about punishment or reform for them - its about removing them from society for good. You kill someone, you mark your life for deletion. Obviously I agree it be proved as near as possible to 100% that they are the guilty party by DNA or whatever means before the sentence is carried out.
But I also believe in corporal punishment - guess I'm a messed up puppy.
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Pchimp
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 159 Registered: 6/18/2003 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 16:24 |
I hate to give this argument legs here, but when wading through bullshit, some days you just hold your nose, and others you kick it out of the way.
Since 1976, there have been 943 state executions. In that same time, 117 death row inmates have been exonerated on hard evidence (e.g. DNA). These are not good odds, people.
I do believe that the death penalty, when judicially applied, can be deserved and valid. We don't have a system in place with sufficient parity between guilt and punishment. In fact, I cannot conceive of such a system. This is exactly what led George Ryan, a pro-death penalty governor, to halt executions: the system has demonstrated an unacceptable failure rate, and makes too many mistakes.
To paraphrase somesuch, it's better for 10 guilty men to live than for one innocent to be executed. |
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