acheron
Cynical_Malcontent   SSHOLEPosts: 567 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 20:53 |
Pchimp: I hate to give this argument legs here, but when wading through bullshit, some days you just hold your nose, and others you kick it out of the way.
Since 1976, there have been 943 state executions. In that same time, 117 death row inmates have been exonerated on hard evidence (e.g. DNA). These are not good odds, people.
I do believe that the death penalty, when judicially applied, can be deserved and valid. We don't have a system in place with sufficient parity between guilt and punishment. In fact, I cannot conceive of such a system. This is exactly what led George Ryan, a pro-death penalty governor, to halt executions: the system has demonstrated an unacceptable failure rate, and makes too many mistakes.
To paraphrase somesuch, it's better for 10 guilty men to live than for one innocent to be executed.
This seems the significant part of the argument here. The death penalty, in order to remain alligned with fundamental societal values, must be 100% accurate. Human systems are never 100% accurate.
Anyway, once again, all of this "they are murderers, theya ll deserve to die" attitude goes against the foundation of the judicial system in general. The judge, the jury will decide their sentance, in accordance with the law. Rationality is essential here,
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ghostrider
liberal exit  SSHOLEPosts: 2525 Registered: 7/29/2004 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 21:03 |
POL POT ?
IDI AMIN DADA ?
JOSEPH STALIN ?
ADOLF HITLER ?
JOHN GACY ?
RICHARD RAMIREZ ?
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MstrLance ~
I think you accidentally drew a hexapus.
Dent ~I did, didn't I. |
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barch97
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 588 Registered: 6/18/2003 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 21:40 |
barch97: thou shall not kill
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint  SSHOLEPosts: 833 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 21:43 |
NAME OF SOMEONE WHO OSTENSIBLY KILLED PEOPLE
What some people are saying about the death penalty makes perfect sense to an extent. A person, in killing, has rendered themselves a citizen who is no longer welcome in a society. Society is an agreement to live together under the understanding that our safety will be mutually assured. Murder is therefore an offense that affects the entire society. The offender must be removed from society. BUT that doesn't need to mean that said person should be killed. That person can be removed from society safely and effectively by being jailed.
And for those that want to off every murderer (or even thief, for christ sake), what about kids and 'tards and those with certifiable mental problems like schizophrenia? |
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dent
Slipping it into the wrong hole any chance I get  SSHOLEPosts: 917 Registered: 10/20/2004 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 23:05 |
Nocal: If you believe that all life is a pleasureable experience just because one is living, you're wrong.
I don't believe i am as wrong as you say. Nor, do I believe my opnion is "partly bullshit", as you say. I believe in an eye for an eye. Plain and fucking simple. You kill someone, then you SHOULD be a pile of dead shit yourself. This is an opinion, and it hardly makes it invalid.
As for the "kill them all" mentality, in the context of a discussion on judicial systems, its a joke and it ain't that funny.
I wasn't joking. Kill all the murderers and child molesters.
[Edited on 21/1/2005 by dent]
[Edited on 21/1/2005 by dent]
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint SSHOLEPosts: 833 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 23:33 |
ALL the murderers and child molestors? Self-defense? Statutory? Why don't you be more specific. And again: lifetime in jail vs. a quick death that is not "cruel or unusual" (in theory). The quick death sounds like less torture, so if you hate these people so much...why don't you want them to live in pain? |
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dent
Slipping it into the wrong hole any chance I get SSHOLEPosts: 917 Registered: 10/20/2004 Offline
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1/21/2005 at 23:47 |
If you are a murderer, I FEEL, you, as a person who has taken someone that I loved out of my life, you should be killed. Self defense, whatever, you fucked up, now pay the price. I would feel more relieved knowing you are dead, not breathing my air. Again, that is how I personally feel about this subject.
As far as child molesters, every single person who abuses a child in a sexual manner should die. Why? Because thats what i believe - imagine that... I also don't think people molest children in "self defense".
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RoozleRose
Tender vittles  Posts: 48 Registered: 1/11/2005 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 01:54 |
Yeah Dent, child molesters never offend in self-defense. They cannot be cured. And the DNA thing is a HUGE consideration! Of course they should not carry out executions in cases where there is no forensic proof/evidence or confession (certain unusual cases notwithstanding, such as Scott/Laci & Conner Peterson, where the circumstantial evidence overwhelms all else). I realize there have been innocent people executed in tragically erroneous cases, but this shit is bound to happen. With the advances of science and the new forensic techniques available to investigators today, even people on death row have an opportunity, if innocent, to have their DNA compared to what's in the data banks, and not only can they be cleared, the real perp can be nailed down immediately if they've been in the "system". I do not apologize for my views - some people just do not deserve to live. And they are the ones who have deliberately and without remorse taken the lives of vibrant, living, breathing individuals.
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wolfer
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 483 Registered: 12/1/2003 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 02:31 |
Its like myself when I was falsely jailed for public intoxication and then beat down by the sheriffs. I had 3 broken ribs and did nothing to deserve this. I did not fight or argue with them. But I could sit here and tell you I didnt do anyhting all day but the majority of you would not believe me. Unless its happened to you or someone close to you.
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dent
Slipping it into the wrong hole any chance I get SSHOLEPosts: 917 Registered: 10/20/2004 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 02:32 |
Very well said.
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Pchimp
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 159 Registered: 6/18/2003 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 02:43 |
wolfer: Its like myself when I was falsely jailed for public intoxication and then beat down by the sheriffs. I had 3 broken ribs and did nothing to deserve this. I did not fight or argue with them. But I could sit here and tell you I didnt do anyhting all day but the majority of you would not believe me. Unless its happened to you or someone close to you.
/me shakes his head and wonders where the fuck Kansas went
A personal account of an innocent being severely beaten by the Man and an admission that no one is likely to ever believe his innocence -- how is this an argument for capital punishment? |
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint SSHOLEPosts: 833 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 03:00 |
...child molesters...cannot be cured.
Wrong. Medication, castration, therapy.
Of course they should not carry out executions in cases where there is no forensic proof/evidence or confession (certain unusual cases notwithstanding, such as Scott/Laci & Conner Peterson, where the circumstantial evidence overwhelms all else).
There are people who confess to crimes they have not comitted. Seriously. Insane people do this, especially when it's a famous case. Confessions alone are taken with a grain of salt. And why does circumstantial evidence EVER overwhelm anything?? It's circumstantial for a reason.
I realize there have been innocent people executed in tragically erroneous cases, but this shit is bound to happen.
Wrong. It doesn't have to happen. And it's a little crazy that you find that acceptable.
With the advances of science and the new forensic techniques available to investigators today, even people on death row have an opportunity, if innocent, to have their DNA compared to what's in the data banks
What kind of data banks hold every person's DNA? Sure, if the real criminal was in prison before, there might be a record. But who says that will happen? |
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dent
Slipping it into the wrong hole any chance I get SSHOLEPosts: 917 Registered: 10/20/2004 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 04:45 |
Child Molesters Cure:
Medicine.
NOCAL FOR PRESIDENT.
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wolfer
DARTH MENSES Posts: 483 Registered: 12/1/2003 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 04:56 |
Pchimp: wolfer: Its like myself when I was falsely jailed for public intoxication and then beat down by the sheriffs. I had 3 broken ribs and did nothing to deserve this. I did not fight or argue with them. But I could sit here and tell you I didnt do anyhting all day but the majority of you would not believe me. Unless its happened to you or someone close to you.
/me shakes his head and wonders where the fuck Kansas went
A personal account of an innocent being severely beaten by the Man and an admission that no one is likely to ever believe his innocence -- how is this an argument for capital punishment?
What it has to do with is the guilty untill proven innnocent theory. I was beat down then charged with a bogus resisting arrest charge that will be on my record for the rest of my life because the cop was having a bad day. So in turn Many people are in death row that shouldnt be there. I have said that when 100% the criminal is guilty then to get them out of society. But the problem is that because a cop says some ones guilty of something they are not always telling the truth.
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent SSHOLEPosts: 567 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 05:06 |
So in turn Many people are in death row that shouldnt be there.
Statistically, innocent people are ALWAYS going to be there, at some point. Taking an innocent life is wrong, and it is not right to uphold a system that takes innocent lives at ANY time for ANY reason.
Props to nocal for responding to everything else.
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent SSHOLEPosts: 567 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 05:09 |
dent: Nocal: If you believe that all life is a pleasureable experience just because one is living, you're wrong.
I don't believe i am as wrong as you say. Nor, do I believe my opnion is "partly bullshit", as you say. I believe in an eye for an eye. Plain and fucking simple. You kill someone, then you SHOULD be a pile of dead shit yourself. This is an opinion, and it hardly makes it invalid.
As for the "kill them all" mentality, in the context of a discussion on judicial systems, its a joke and it ain't that funny.
I wasn't joking. Kill all the murderers and child molesters.
I don't doubt you weren't joking. What I'm saying that such a position, applied to real situations with real people with real mitigating factors, is a joke. If the world were so black and white as that, things would be much easier.
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint SSHOLEPosts: 833 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 05:52 |
Child Molesters Cure:
Medicine.
NOCAL FOR PRESIDENT.
There is no "cure" for any chemical condition of the mind. There is treatment. There is no "medicine," but there is medication. I never said let child molesters have some fucking robitussin and walk free. You can chemically or physically castrate a molester, and that person will never have a single sexual urge ever again. Or you can treat with various medications and therapy, also while keeping this person imprisoned. You simplify this argument. You want to kill criminals regardless of any mitigating factors, and in your opinion I want them walking on the street full of aspirin. It's all more complicated than that. |
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dent
Slipping it into the wrong hole any chance I get SSHOLEPosts: 917 Registered: 10/20/2004 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 07:56 |
Hey Nocal, relax... I'm a big boy, I can have an opinion different than yours.
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"You must have weak asslips. I like to sculpt mine on the way out, like table legs under a lathe" - Vasudeva |
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barch97
DARTH MENSES Posts: 588 Registered: 6/18/2003 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 12:34 |
barch97: barch97: thou shall not kill
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Stump
SENATOR BABYHEAD  Posts: 310 Registered: 6/18/2002 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 14:53 |
Okay, how about meeting halfway on this? We take the medium risk offenders and give them "farm" labor imternments. They can raise the sheep that make the wool that make the other prisoners uniforms; grow food raise cattle, etc. for system use. Teach them trades if they don't already have one to become productive members of society on their release.
The non-violent offenders (most of your drug users, white collar, drunken crimes) can learn trades also if they don't have one by implementing the raw materiels the "farms" produce. Your skilled people are free trainers, the medical doctors are required to work in the clinics, lawyers are required to work pro bono on their fellow inmates appeals(by either side). Cuts out a lot of cost of care and the appeals process for the top level of inmate.
The violent offenders you have two types basically: the recidivist and the rehabitable. The rehabitable go into a modern day style prison where they get counseling, meds, whatever else they need - but only for a fraction of their original sentence. On review they can be allowed a move down to a medium level facility where they can start learning to become productive. The movements all work laterally - do well move to a better place as your sentence gets shorter, fuck up and it gets worse. Now the recidivist we know there is no hope for so we gotta go Devils Isle/Guantanamo/Australia on them. They're staying there for life or until they can prove their innocence.
Now don't forget, your tax burden is lower because the "farm" level of this system helps defray costs, as does the care for your own aspect. Obviously everything would have to be on a case by case basis and there would need to be a federal standard to punishments, no personal interpertations of law at a certain level of Judge. Everyone's mostly happy except for the suckers locked in little cages and the ACLU for -God forbid- actually punishing a criminal by forcing him to work.
Now you say: Criminals aren't smart enough to teach each other or care for each other, what would motivate them? There's your first hint of who's going to be rehabitable, the ones that actually grasp the concept. Not being smart enough to teach other inmates? You'd be surprised, for all we know we may have a Linkswarmer inmate lurking around here. |
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nocal
It's insane, this guy's taint SSHOLEPosts: 833 Registered: 8/25/2004 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 15:43 |
^ pretty fuckin good idea! |
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acheron
Cynical_Malcontent SSHOLEPosts: 567 Registered: 4/29/2004 Offline
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1/22/2005 at 16:22 |
Excellent. I've never understood why we don't do this kinda stuff anyway. There is a lot of man-power in prisons that could be put to very good use.
for all we know we may have a Linkswarmer inmate lurking around here.
I would not be fucking suprised man.
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I'm an INTJ. This explains why I'm alternating between silence and judging you. |
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Stump
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 310 Registered: 6/18/2002 Offline
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1/25/2005 at 15:33 |
Someone is starting to get the right idea:
In prison, inmates should "pick up skills and abilities that will allow them to go back out into society and be productive citizens," Blunt said. "Playing video games doesn't have anything to do with either of those objectives."
Read the rest of it here:http://www.theday.com/eng/web/news/re_ap.aspx?re=V/VIDEO_GAMES_PRISONS
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Evildigitz
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 143 Registered: 4/6/2004 Offline
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1/25/2005 at 16:42 |
Yup stump that idea would deffinitly be a lot better then the huge expense prison systems are at the moment, though what happens when the _good_ prisoners decide they want a union and extra rights - you just know the overly liberal types will be falling over themselves to loudly support the inmates and go on and on about how draconian and evil this new system is.
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RoozleRose
Tender vittles Posts: 48 Registered: 1/11/2005 Offline
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1/26/2005 at 02:33 |
Stump raises several good points! And I still make no apologies for my pro-death penalty views - I have testified in two murder trials, once for the prosecution and once for the defense. The "kill-em-all" attitude is bullshit, but there are circumstances that warrant the offender being removed from society once and for all. And prison is not the answer.
Regarding "medicine" and "castration" (chemical or physical), I live within 20 miles of a state "hospital" which houses Sexually Violent Predators (SVPs). Some of these men have petitioned for voluntary chemical castration and a few have been granted this request. After the conclusion of "treatment" and counseling, two of these inmates have gone on record as stating that the procedure (even WITH therapy) did nothing to dispel their urges to molest, and even harm, young children. As any educated individual knows, the brain, not the groin, is what drives libido and sexual urges. So they get treatment to stop the physical function; that won't change how their brains are wired.
I'm not saying that all child molesters should die! But there are certain cases in which this is the only viable option. When it has been proven beyond a doubt that the offender has committed whatever reprehensible acts he/she has been charged with, the death sentence should be carried out! What about people who sodomize babies with foreign objects? And worse??? They do not deserve to take up space on this planet.
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Dumbskull
I'm assuming the position!  SSHOLEPosts: 1935 Registered: 4/22/2004 Offline
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1/26/2005 at 08:35 |
A strange twist
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BeachGoat
DARTH MENSES  Posts: 431 Registered: 10/31/2003 Offline
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1/26/2005 at 14:36 |
wolfer: Its like myself when I was falsely jailed for public intoxication and then beat down by the sheriffs. I had 3 broken ribs and did nothing to deserve this. I did not fight or argue with them. But I could sit here and tell you I didnt do anyhting all day but the majority of you would not believe me. Unless its happened to you or someone close to you.
My wife, a friend & I were going to a bar-b-que joint on the "dark" side of town in Fresno (cities will eat you!) on the day of the Rodney King verdict and got stopped by police because we were barefoot, tie-dyed hippies. Their concept was that we were going to go kill Negroes in revenge or something. In those days, I hadn't even SEEN a TV in almost a year and had no idea what was going on. The cops broke her wrist, four of my ribs and my left wrist, and many bones on my friend. The Headline: "Police: From Boredom to Terror in Seconds"
We had done nothing more than go out for lunch at the wrong time. However the courts are there as a stopgap to keep overzealous cops from running things. After proof of a capital crime (you cause death, you get death) , the sooner we erase these fuckers and get them off of my tax dollar, the better. It costs $65 an HOUR for each death row prisonor. That's fucked up. Fry now and save!
RoozleRose: "I'm not saying that all child molesters should die!"
Then I will, starting with Slippy!
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Stump
SENATOR BABYHEAD Posts: 310 Registered: 6/18/2002 Offline
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1/26/2005 at 15:44 |
I live in CT and this case has me baffled. For the past two months almost it's been front page news. Ross has asked to die, he was deemed competent enough to stand trial originally and now there are groups, not only the public defenders office (who he himself fired in favor of a private attorney), that are suing the state to stop his execution. I'm certainly not anti-death penalty and this is a spot where I believe the person should die. The appeals process itself needs to be revamped if a group not associated with the subject can stop an execution that the subject itself wants to go through.
Thoughts on the subject of execution itself:
Are the persons organs still viable for use with current execution methods? If a person has been deemed unworthy of life why are we not attempting to give them one final chance at being a productive member of society by donating their organs to transplant banks? It would be a small amends in the case of murderers for the lives they took. |
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Steel
If you want to keep your tongue, don't lick me in the Winter!  SSHOLEPosts: 518 Registered: 10/14/2004 Offline
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1/27/2005 at 17:15 |
I loved reading this whole thread and want to add my vote for the Pro-Death Penalty clan.
I don't want murderers, rapists and child molesters to suffer. I want them gone from this planet forever, I don't want them to have the ability to coexist or even have a conversation with any other human ever again.
My belief is that as forensic science improves, the amount of wrongly convicted criminals executed will lessen.
Innocent people die everyday for no good reason. If one innocent person has to die to also get rid of 10 killers, I'm for it. I hope that one innocent guy isn't me, but hey I hope I don't get hit by a bus, or die in a giant tsunami too.
[Edited on 27/1/2005 by Steel] |
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LORDKAHUNA
Don't make me fuk your moustache  SSHOLEPosts: 1691 Registered: 8/5/2003 Offline
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1/27/2005 at 17:35 |
dent: If you are a murderer, I FEEL, you, as a person who has taken someone that I loved out of my life, you should be killed. Self defense, whatever, you fucked up, now pay the price. I would feel more relieved knowing you are dead, not breathing my air. Again, that is how I personally feel about this subject.
As far as child molesters, every single person who abuses a child in a sexual manner should die. Why? Because thats what i believe - imagine that... I also don't think people molest children in "self defense".
LORDKAHUNA SUPPORTS THIS VIEWPOINT
Rawk out Dent!
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