Excerpt from a chat:
Ottoshoes : so really, this is all very complicated and messy
Ottoshoes : and my mind just tells me "abort, abort, eject from situ"

...

Hereis Jason's email with my responses within it.


--start

First off, I want you to know that what I'm hearing from you and what I'm hearing from her are drastically different.



Jason wrote:
> Ottoshoes,
> I don't really know how you're feeling about the whole mess... my guess
> is not too good. Pretty much I've got a lot of stuff in my head and am writing
> both for myself and to let you know what's going on.

Yeah, I've been pretty stressed myself.

> One really big thing... I have no idea what you could have against me.
> First, I've not done anything to Haiku except love her all these years, and any
> troubles we've had are ours and have nothing to do with you. Second, the only
> thing I did that was negative toward you was get mad when you said you wanted
> to keep dating Haiku. Get mad? Ottoshoes, I've been furious since I first found out.
> Crying on a regular basis, arguing with Haiku, frustrated and feeling sick. Is
> it not understandable to get angry when you show zero remorse for what you've
> done, even after seeing how much I've been hurt. First I wanted to give you
> the benefit of the doubt, and it made sense that you'd need to talk with her
> some. But taking her out to bars and telling her she should leave me cause
> I'm trying to control her/making me out to be a bad person... When I realized
> you were doing that it was just too much. I still can't believe you would do that.

And what has been Haiku's response to all this?

> Last weekend I wrote an email to you, let Haiku read it first, and she wanted
> me to wait before I sent it to you. Seemed wise so I did. Anyway, I'm attaching
> it here to let you know where I was.
>
> Just to let you know. I don't appreciate you sending my email to Haiku behind
> my back. There was nothing in there that I haven't told her already. She already
> knows what and how I think, and I told her the contents of the email when she
> asked. I'm not hiding anything. You don't understand the dynamics of our
> relationship, and have already made things much more difficult and complicated
> than they need to be.

If there was nothing to hide then why is it an issue and how can it make things worse?
Please, tell me the dynamics of your relationship - perhaps this is the source for all this confusion. Is it an open relationship? Partially open? What are the limits and boundaries? And the consequences for breaking them? Are these mutually agreed upon by both of you? Honestly, knowing this would really make a big difference and help.

> Looks like you've been telling Haiku she should leave me. Well, I already
> understand what she wants to do and I'm trying to come to terms with it to let her
> do what she needs.

Actually, most of what I was telling her was if she wanted to break up with you, she needed to move out, otherwise you would be in denial. She had been the one telling me she wants to leave you. Perhaps that changed when I heard about the incident at the resturant - I was more insistent she just leave after that.

> You going behind my back, saying you're talking with people who know me and
> portraying me like someone who might be dangerous or that she should just run from...

Actually I was getting their opinions about the chat we had and what they thought of your actions and your words. I said I talked to a lot of people - it's true. Only two of them know you, but I felt like I needed to talk to them to get their opinion, since from the outside it looks pretty weird. I wanted to make sure I wasn't overreacting about it. And I figured someone who knew you could help me best. I really went back and forth about the whole thing for a long time. One of my friends even went as far as saying I should have gone over there right then and there and get her out ASAP.

Did you read what you said to me?
Can I tell you what I saw and how I interpreted it?

You tell me you physically restrained her from doing something - this tells me you are not afraid to use force to make her do something you want her to do.
You equate her to a kid, spoiled and stubborn, which tells me you don't think she's an adult and incapable of making her own decisions.
You imply she's being a bitch and/or a slut, which is very disrespectful, especially coming from someone who "loves" her.
You imply she should be reprimanded, which sounds like you could get violent.
You say she should have been spanked, again, more violence.
You talked only about your feelings and not hers, sounding like you think hers are not as important than yours.

Now, all these put together - you using force to take her home, you implying she should be punished, no mention of her feelings.... worried me.
Can you understand why this would cause concern?

If you're not afraid of ignoring what she says enough to carry her to a car, what else could you be capable of?
Also, I consider being drunk no excuse. In fact, being drunk can make it much worse.

I also never said you were dangerous, although I did imply it. I said you scared me and made me concerned. Dangerous? Maybe. I was primarily concerned about you being destructive - to what or maybe whom I did not know - and that's the scary part.


> What kind of moral high ground do you think you're talking from? Sleeping with
> an old friend's girl?

I don't know if I've ever really presented myself from any moral high ground. I've tried to give you objective advice and look at it from outside given the facts I have.
But I also figured if I couldn't trust your girlfriend, then neither of us should be dating her, since then she's obviously not to be trusted.
That first night, I should let you know - When she had told me you two weren't dating anymore, I had asked as a concerned friend and nothing more.
Then when I was giving her a ride home, she told me she didn't want to go there. So we went to my place and we sat on the couch & talked for a while.
I said something along the lines of "this is awkward, you told me you two aren't dating anymore, and I'm attracted to you, but he's a friend of mine..."
At that point, she leaned over and kissed me. I was not really being assertive other than breaching the topic.
I figured if she was being that assertive, that must mean something.
Again, if I can't trust your girlfriend, then maybe neither should you, or else you've got bigger problems than just me (or will).
Because I'm sure if it wasn't me, I'm sure it would have been someone else.

> I could have gone around and told all 'the old group' what you did, and I'm sure
> their opinions of you would have dropped, but I didn't do that. For some reason,
> even after I found out what had been going on I still thought I could trust you.
> That's why I talked to you in the first place. I wanted you to know what was
> going on, what the consequences off the situation were, and I figured you were
> good enough of a person to know to leave it alone. Do you have any idea how
> angry you've made me? First I was just really hurt, but tried to deal with it
> as best as I could. Now I just feel like I really can't trust you, and you
> somehow seem to see yourself as objective and able to give good advice, even
> though you're on the outside and don't really know what you're dealing with.
> Leave other people's lives alone.
> Jason

And I was about to, until you got physical. Remember, in my email I did say:
"And I was starting to think I should step out and let you two deal with it, but with his actions and the way he responded to me, and treated you.... I feel like it'd be irresponsible if I didn't do something."
Maybe your actions may not seem like a big deal to you, but in all the relationships I've been in, and everyone I known has been in, that kind of stuff is a big deal.
I also would think someone "outside" would be more objective than someone on the inside. That's also why I talked with many other people about this.

> So, that's the email... I guess you can tell I was rather unhappy. Now my
> situation is kinda the same. I don't really care to see you again... at this point
> at least, and the thought of you with Haiku makes me pretty sick (actually why I drank
> so much on Wed). But I still wonder what's going on in your head. One thing, I
> don't think you have any brothers or sisters, or have ever lived with a girlfriend.

I have 1 brother, 1 sister, and my ex and I lived together for about a year of our 3+ year relationship.

> If I'm right you probably can't relate to where I am very well. I only have one
> brother, but I've lived with Haiku long enough to make up for the lack of a sister.
> Honestly, that's sometimes how our relationship seems. It's like she's my best
> friend, family... sometimes like a sister, sometimes kindof the mothering
> relationship, but also my lover. I think that's the way really deep relationships of
> that nature are supposed to become. You come to know as many aspects of a
> personality as possible, and are there for each other in ways that lend themselves to
> that. If I seem controlling it's because I don't know a better course of action. I
> know that what Haiku will do when she's been drinking is not always what she'd do
> otherwise, and I don't want her to take major actions and create or make awkward
> situations worse because of that.

But don't forget, people learn best from their own mistakes, and sometimes you have to let them make them.

> As I thought, she's been back here since then and we haven't had any problems.
> Similar things have happened before, I'm choosing courses of action on past
> experiences and my knowledge of her. Something else. The kind of behavior that
> is normal for society is different from that within a family. The things Joel and I
> can say and have done to each other throughout our lives obviously encompass a lot of
> things that would be very offensive if done to someone outside of that kind of
> relationship. Haiku and I have that kind of relationship. Incredibly personal things
> can be understood without a word being said. Communication is much deeper than just
> laying out ideas and reaching conclusions, particularly for her. I don't want to
> control her, and I do want what's best for her. But I also don't want major mistakes
> to be made or harmful things to happen in the process. That's why I've been trying
> to give her the space she says she wants (probably what you said you'd noticed) but
> at the same time protect what we have.

And what if it's not possible that these can be achieved together? Are you willing to accept that as a possibility? Have you even considered the thought?

> You must realize, I'm not thinking in terms of boyfriend/girlfriend, friend,
> husband/wife or whatever. I'm looking at the heart, that's my concern. I know I
> love her and always will. Unfortunately, women seem to change more easily and seem
> to have less clarity about what is fundamentally important (at least younger women).
> Maybe I'm sounding arrogant in stating this... it's not my intention, but I'm trying
> the best I can to come to terms with my experiences and navigate through the storm.

I don't take this as arrogance, but rather I take it as belittling her, or at the least women in general.

> The irony is, I aways wanted her to travel and live in another culture, be more
> independent and stronger, and have clear goals and a sense of achievement in life.
> That's exactly the direction she's moving in, here in [city] (where she now is
> because I first came). I think it's great. She's branching out and wanting to live
> her own life on her own terms that she's in the process of establishing. Wonderful.
> That's why I was ok when she kinda dated that guy Bob, or later Jack, or when she
> went out to the bar with Pat (when you gave me a ride back), and that's why I
> did my best to deal with it when she slept with Eric in Seattle and later went back
> to visit him again. This is all hard stuff, but as long as I felt she loved me, and
> it was her branching out and living her own life I could handle it, maybe even
> support it. That is our 'becoming distanced' that you said you noticed. I didn't
> love her any less at all, and she was just trying to have some freedom and try life
> without me. Other than one year she's lived her entire life either with her family
> or with me. That combined with the influence of being in America is why she feels
> this way.
> Now, about you. If your actions lead someone to being hurt as deeply as me, I
> certainly would hope there'd be some sense of guilt or remorse. I didn't see it.
> Discomfort yes (as if I were comfortable), but that you wanted to continue seeing her
> and what you said about me indicated that you felt no regret at all and were prepared
> to continue regardless. This is what really made me angry.

I said I wanted to continue dating her because I believed that she wanted to continue dating me. And I was upset that you had treated and talked about her so disrespectfully - and I tend give the respect that I see given. So in this case, perhaps both of us are at fault?
Honestly, if we were to date, I would love to have your approval. Actually, that's why I asked, but in the heat of the discussion, I know it didn't come across that way.

> Something else. I really don't want to be angry. I talked about this at your
> house, that I'd thought bad things and was trying to put them away, that nothing good
> would come of it etc. Why did you push me? For a few days I was fuming. Ottoshoes, I
> don't want to hate you. It's very unhealthy for me, and I always thought you were a
> good enough guy and would have never expected anything like this (and didn't,
> twice). I've gone from furious to real tired, worn out. Actually, now I think I
> have bronchitis or something... been coughing and weak.

Twice?

> One thing that I really don't understand is ... we've had metaphysical
> conversations... talked about spirituality etc. It seems that you've been focusing
> on the 'everybody's their own god' concept, which is fine, but also seems rather
> convenient as it supports your desire for me to back off and ... let Haiku go to you
> (which she doesn't want by the way). Real spiritual insight or motivation is rarely
> so serving to the ego.

Honestly, I would rather her be happy without me than unhappy with. I am OK with whatever she wants, as long as the decision is hers.
So if she doesn't want to see me, that's fine.
But, just to let you know, so far she hasn't communicated that to me. In the last week, she's told me that maybe we shouldn't see each other until she breaks up with you, and I intend to honor her wishes, and in the meantime I'm trying to just step back and be a friend if she needs it. It's hard, but it's what she wants so it's what I'll do. If she's not interested in seeing me anymore though, she needs to tell me. So far she hasn't.
Again, what I'm hearing from you and what I'm hearing from her is drastically different. Hopefully you understand my confusion.

> Something else, if you have an understanding of the underlying unity of all
> beings and the cosmos, don't your actions seem self destructive? I think about this
> myself. In being angry at Ottoshoes, I'm only hurting myself. Point one, the negative
> energy wears me down. Point two, Ottoshoes and I are both one as parts of the
> universality that is God, and my reinforcing my illusion of ego through emotionally
> pushing Ottoshoes away only serves to tighten the mental spiritual knot that I am in, so
> I don't want to do that. At the same time I am experiencing/ living life as this
> individual being, and feel like if I don't live on 'those/it's terms' I incapacitate
> myself from protecting what is most important to me. You also said in an email to
> Haiku, Jason is afraid of his world changing.

Actually what I said was you were afraid of letting go.

> Yes and No. I expect my world to change. I'm afraid of things developing in
> destructive ways. If the final outcome (at least for the next few years) is already
> known (and it largely seems to be) I want to have a soft landing, no burned bridges,
> and be able to protect the things that at the end of life will be looked back on and
> understood as really meaningful.
> Jason


I'm beginning to think the only person who really knows what is going on here is Haiku.
Understand that what I have been telling Haiku has mostly been in response to things she has told me and to help her do what she has told me she wants to do.
Now if I'm wrong, and she's lying to me, I would like to know - I would certainly gladly remove myself from the situation and let you two figure things out and I'll get on with my life. But it needs to come from her.

By the way, I'm glad we've moved to email. The chats were too frantic, often with you saying things that I couldn't respond to properly before something else would come up. I hope I'm not coming across poorly in this or as uncaring. I don't really want to make you both unhappy, even though I know I have, and I'm sorry for that.
I am telling you the truth the way I understand it, and sometimes the truth hurts. Now maybe I'm not understanding things right; and I just want us both to know exactly what the truth is, even if it does hurt.

Please, read this over a few times before you respond. Again, everything I have said is the truth as I have experienced it. If we can't be truthful with each other, we have nothing.

Ottoshoes

--end


I spent over an hour crafting my responses, then went to bed. Monday Haiku doesn't come by my office, and I call her on my way out. I leave a message saying I need to know who's lying and what's going on.

She calls me right after I get to my place (I live close so I often go home for lunch). I ask her how much she knows about the email and what he's said, specifically about him saying she doesn't want to be with me. She says she does, and again, reminds me that jason is crazy. I tell her that I made up a long response, if she was fine with me sending it, and that I would like to send it to her as well.
I also tell her that I really didn't want to, but that I thought we should not do anything together at all anymore and she shouldn't call/see me anymore until she moves out. I could tell she didn't really want to do thi, but I explained they needed to get their shit over with and I needed to not complicate matters.
I got off the phone and ate my lunch.

I looked over the email a few more times, altered a few things to make it slightly more level headed, and send it off. My only regret is not putting "girlfriend" in quotes. I headed back to work.

Monday afternoon, I was actually feeling a lot better about the whole thing. I’m at my computer, and I get this initial response:


--start

Ottoshoes,
I haven't read through it a few times, just once, so don't consider this the response. One thing though. Thanks. I feel better towards you after reading your mail, and that's a big burden off my shoulders. The 'twice' thing... that was me thinking you were still trying to get Haiku to leave me for you behind my back even after knowing how much I'd been hurt. That's what really made me mad in the chat... and since then. About that, now I'm not really sure what to think, but I suspect I likely was making more out of it in my head that was actual. Anyway, it's easier to get past that now...
I was wondering if it'd be ok to come by sometime and talk. This email's pretty complex... a lot to say, and I'd like to just figure it all out. Anyway, that's all for now... I'll send the 'response' in a couple days unless I hear otherwise.

Jason

--end


And with that, folks, we have finally caught up with real world events.
I have not heard anything from either of them or tried to contact them in the last few days since this.

I'll try to add another entry when/if anything else happens.